Am looking for alternatives to these two stones from a feel perspective. I love sharpening on them but the edges I get are kinda meh. While sharp, the they feel muted compared to other stones I have in those grit ranges.
Alternative to Chosera / Pro 800 / 3K for feel?
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King 1000 + king 6000/8000 can be a little more aggressive.
Hmm, how to describe. I like edges that have a sort of glisteny aggressive quality to them. When I run my fingers along the edge, it cuts into my pads immediately. When I cut tomatoes or peppers it just grips and drops right in.
I can get edges like this on many stones ranging from 400 and up ( I currently finish my knives anywhere between 4K and 16K ). Its not a grit size issue. I think its something to do with the angles of the individual abrasive particles combined with how much of the individual particle is exposed.
Hardness of the stone doesn't seem to play much of a roll. I have no issues with the edges I get of Shapton Glass stones which I think of as hard.
Getting back to the abrasive. I wonder if SIC is a smoother abrasive than AO and the like.
Haha. Totally love King 8K. That stone leaves for me the perfect 8K edge. Its a splash and go, its fast, and feels great with a little slurry. Lives next to my sink.
The 1k? The edge it leaves I am a big fan of but its too much of a soaker for how I use stones.
Appreciate the suggestion though. Thank you.
You should absolutely be able to get such an edge on the 800/3000. If your edges from those stones aren't passing the three finger test/dropping through tomatoes/peppers, then I would first work on getting the edge you want on that specific stone before looking at other stones.
inferno
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) <*))))><
there are very few high grit sic stones. its supposedly a friable particle that constantly cracks into smaller sharp pieces.
sigma 240, sigma 1k, the green 8k suehiro g8. thats pretty much those i know of.
sigma 240, sigma 1k, the green 8k suehiro g8. thats pretty much those i know of.
inferno
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the cerax/traditional edges are pretty aggressive feeling for their grit. even the 8k. they feel kinda bland though.
the glass stones edges are also aggressive but you already have those.
personally i dont think the naniwa pros feel all that special. its just another stone.
maybe look into some of the imanishi/besters? i have the 4k kitayama and 10k imanishi (i dont know if they are in the ceramic or bester line)
and those are very creamy and nice to sharpen on but i think they are better at polishing than sharpening, they try to mirror polish edges.
the glass stones edges are also aggressive but you already have those.
personally i dont think the naniwa pros feel all that special. its just another stone.
maybe look into some of the imanishi/besters? i have the 4k kitayama and 10k imanishi (i dont know if they are in the ceramic or bester line)
and those are very creamy and nice to sharpen on but i think they are better at polishing than sharpening, they try to mirror polish edges.
I have the Chosera 400, 800 and 3K and am just not wowed by them.
I like that they are splash and goes, dish slowly and don't load up, but the 400 gets skaty on hard carbon and the edges of the 800 and 3K just don't excite me. Not to say in the hands of someone else they wouldn't be awesome but for me...... so anyways, am thinking maybe the Chosera / Pro thing is just not a good fit.
That said, I kind of squint and growl at the Glass 1K, totally love the Glass 2K, don't care about the 6k and want to marry the 16K so who knows, maybe the NP 2K would be my next GF
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
We get what you're saying, but there's nothing wrong with the stones. Especially not any mumbo jumbo about 'angles of abrasive particles.' Some people really will invent an alternative reality rather than believe they're doing something wrong.
I don't doubt that you can achieve an excellent edge on other stones but not naniwa pros. It's probably some quality of the NPs that your technique doesn't work for. Since you like glass stones, maybe it's the muddiness?
I did write, "Not to say in the hands of someone else they wouldn't be awesome".
Sorry you are having a bad day man.
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I think that would be worth a try
You wouldn't happen to know what the feel difference is between the Shapton Pros and Glass would you?
inferno
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the glass stones are resionoid and the pros i think are magnesia bond.
but to be honest, the 1k's feels very similar, the 2k's feel similar. maybe the glass is a bit more creamy and feel a bit more luxurious in use.
the pro line dont overlap much with glass except for the low grits and then 1k and 2k and the 8k
feel is overrated though imo. performance is not. the glass are basically steel agnostic, they cut almost everything at the same speed.
but so does the pros...
i actually like the glass feel. they have the right amount of resistance while in use. and they hold on to the water quite well. but so does the pros.
its all just personal preference though.
my favorite finishers from the glass line is the 3k and 4k. the 4k will clog up faster, and its a slower stone, and the 3k will be faster with a lot less clogging but it wont get as sharp. both of these provide very good bite on tomatos and peppers and such. 0 hesitation.
i think all the glass stones feel very similar, they just get finer. well except the 220/500, those do their own thing.
but to be honest, the 1k's feels very similar, the 2k's feel similar. maybe the glass is a bit more creamy and feel a bit more luxurious in use.
the pro line dont overlap much with glass except for the low grits and then 1k and 2k and the 8k
feel is overrated though imo. performance is not. the glass are basically steel agnostic, they cut almost everything at the same speed.
but so does the pros...
i actually like the glass feel. they have the right amount of resistance while in use. and they hold on to the water quite well. but so does the pros.
its all just personal preference though.
my favorite finishers from the glass line is the 3k and 4k. the 4k will clog up faster, and its a slower stone, and the 3k will be faster with a lot less clogging but it wont get as sharp. both of these provide very good bite on tomatos and peppers and such. 0 hesitation.
i think all the glass stones feel very similar, they just get finer. well except the 220/500, those do their own thing.
Much appreciated.
I think that would be worth a try
You wouldn't happen to know what the feel difference is between the Shapton Pros and Glass would you?
I had the Pro 5K and have the Glass 6K. I like the 6K and hated the Pro 5K. The 5K felt like a hard polished stone with no feedback. I could see swarf forming but it had no feel. The 6k is so much better in that I feel it gives feedback.
Going to be buying a 3k soon as I jump right now from a Pro 1k to the Glass 6k and want something in between
KingShapton
Senior Member
You have already explained it very well, at least the way I understand it. The problem is rather that you are looking for a very special type of edge, based on your statements I even believe that we both prefer a very similar type of edge. And in my experience you don't get that kind of edge with every stone.
By the way, I also know that with some (very good, very popular and highly respected) stones I cannot produce a cutting edge that is satisfactory for me. Of course, the edge is sharp, scary sharp, but I still miss that "certain something", the difference between "meh" and "wow".
To me it feels like I can grind the apex more precisely with some stones than with other stones, if that makes sense to you. And it is independent of hard or soft stones, it depends on the stones themselves.
A few more thoughts on the King stones - if you are a big fan of the edge of the 1k, then give the 1.2k a try. From my point of view, it's way better. And as far as soaking is concerned, have you ever thought about permasoaking?
And maybe the King 4k could be something for you, splash & go, almost, feels creamy and leaves an edge with bite. I am a big fan of this stone.
When I was in my exploration of the 1K stone phase, from King I got the King 800, 1K, and 1.2k and you are right, the 1.2K does leave a great edge. On top of that, I like the feel of it a lot. Still sharpen on it every once in a while just for that.
I did end up finding my sort of "final" 1K stone in the form of the Nubatama 1K Platinum. I think of it as an evolved King in that it takes the qualities I like about the King and builds on them while totally curing their ills. I have 3 or 4 stones that have permanent residences next to my sink. This is one.
I'm with you on the King 4K. Awesome stone. My only complaint is its a little small. I often wondered whether getting a second one and joining them together would make something nice
If you haven't tried it, the King 8K is really special. Its another that has a permanent spot next to my sink. I use it as a touch up stone every few days.
Re permasoaking. I might try it but haven't so far. That said, the other day I read on this forum a member saying he keeps his stones in his toilets water tank as the water gets refreshed all the time. I mean seriously, even if you didn't want to permasoak, having stones in your toilet is reason enough to do it
Thanks for the info. Would love to hear what you think of the 3K when you get it.
KingShapton
Senior Member
I've read a lot of positive things about the Nubatama 1K Platinum. Unfortunately, I would have to order the stone from the USA and with synthetic stones I try to stay within the EU to avoid import fees and taxes. And of course the shipping costs are quite high in relation.
Here again is the problem with shipping costs, import fees and taxes, otherwise I would know a German online shop where you can order the King 4k in large. But the cost of transportation to the United States is guaranteed to be quite high in proportion ...I'm with you on the King 4K. Awesome stone. My only complaint is its a little small. I often wondered whether getting a second one and joining them together would make something nice
I am very curious about this stone and it is on my purchase list. But this year I'm taking it very slowly, my other hobbies are simply costing too much money this year.
I would be very interested in your experience with the Shapton Glass 16k. But it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, it's a different topic, so gladly also by PM.
gesshin 4k soaker, best stone ever
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Please note the Naniwa grit system is different from the JIS. A NP400 delivers a JIS600 kind of edge; the NP800 ends somewhere in the 1200 range.
Exactly the contrary with the Shaptons. The end result of a NP800 and a Shapton Pro 2k will be quite close.
Exactly the contrary with the Shaptons. The end result of a NP800 and a Shapton Pro 2k will be quite close.
As far as feel goes, a permasoaked 1.2k king is pretty similar to the chosera 800 imo.
I totally get that. It's like when I use the king 300 vs my cerax 320. The edge off the cerax just has something special to it, I could honestly stop right there if I want a coarse edge. I just don't get that with the king 300, but that's ok it fulfills its purpose well (removing metal without wearing away too fast)
You know, I watched a video by Keith V. Johnson that talked about the different shapes of the grit contained in stones, and how that can effect the perceived grit rating, and feel among other things. Keep in mind this was referring to various natural stones, but I could see it making sense for synthetics as well.
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One of the interesting properties of the NP series is the totally different character of each stone. The 600 being very different from both the 400 and 800, and the 2k from the 3k. With every one, it takes some time finding out how it works the best for you. More or less water, mud, pressure. I would call the 600 the Shapton amongst those, fast, hard, with little response at the first approach. The 2k starts aggressively, getting smoother with the breaking of its particles when raising mud and adding water. Never giving the silky fealing of a 3k, though.
inferno
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i really like my np2k. i could probably get by with only that and the glass 500. but how boring life would be with only 2 stones.
for a few years i had the naniwa 1k. and i'd say it stops as a 1500 in the shapton system. the 1k NP is faster than a 2k shapton pro, but also much coarser finish. the 2k shapton i'd say is a fine stone (lower end) but the 1k NP is a medium.
the 2k shapton is only slightly slower than the 1k NP but it also crerates a much better/finer edge. and no aggression is lost.
a killer combo is the 1 and 2k shapton pro. cheap and good. it just works.
for a few years i had the naniwa 1k. and i'd say it stops as a 1500 in the shapton system. the 1k NP is faster than a 2k shapton pro, but also much coarser finish. the 2k shapton i'd say is a fine stone (lower end) but the 1k NP is a medium.
the 2k shapton is only slightly slower than the 1k NP but it also crerates a much better/finer edge. and no aggression is lost.
a killer combo is the 1 and 2k shapton pro. cheap and good. it just works.
Bart.s
Well-Known Member
I have the exact same thing with the NP's.
The first set of stones I bought was the Cerax 320, 1K and Rika 5K, on which I learned to sharpen. I really love those stones and can get hair popping edges with them.
Later bought the NP 400, 800 and 3000 and my edges kinda sucked. They would get sharp, but not hair popping sharp as on the suehiro's. In my case, I had a little of a whobble in my strokes and the NP's weren't as forgiving as the Suehiro's. So I worked on my technique and got better with them, but still felt my edges and the stones missed that something special.
Sure, I was frustrated spending a lot of money on a set of stones I didn't love. The NP's just don't give me the joy that the Suehiro's give me, so got back to the Suehiro's and never looked back.
Sometimes certain stones just don't work for you. If you have other stones that work for you, why change them?
The first set of stones I bought was the Cerax 320, 1K and Rika 5K, on which I learned to sharpen. I really love those stones and can get hair popping edges with them.
Later bought the NP 400, 800 and 3000 and my edges kinda sucked. They would get sharp, but not hair popping sharp as on the suehiro's. In my case, I had a little of a whobble in my strokes and the NP's weren't as forgiving as the Suehiro's. So I worked on my technique and got better with them, but still felt my edges and the stones missed that something special.
Sure, I was frustrated spending a lot of money on a set of stones I didn't love. The NP's just don't give me the joy that the Suehiro's give me, so got back to the Suehiro's and never looked back.
Sometimes certain stones just don't work for you. If you have other stones that work for you, why change them?
