Aogami super vs aogami 2 vs r2/sg2 edge retention?
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Higher than 1095, lower than AS.
A lot will depend on the HT of course. Different smiths do it differently. Assuming equivalent HT, A2 will retain it's edge less than AS, on the other hand, AS will chip more easily (though I've never had the issue myself). R2 will retain its edge longer than either.
A2 and AS are pretty similar in how difficult they are to sharpen - which is to say, not difficult at all, like all low alloy steels. You can raise a burr in a handful of strokes, and remove it with one or two high-angle edge-leading passes. Polishing and stropping and you've got a sharp knife in just a couple of minutes, and the edge will last pretty well for cutting food.
R2 will hold an edge longer than either, but it's a lot more difficult to sharpen and may not feel as sharp as easily as the carbon steels. Note: "more difficult" doesn't mean "difficult," But it will take longer and somewhat better technique to really get everything you can out of the edge.
Mileage may vary of course. If someone wants stainless, I would happily recommend R2/SG2 to them.
A2 and AS are pretty similar in how difficult they are to sharpen - which is to say, not difficult at all, like all low alloy steels. You can raise a burr in a handful of strokes, and remove it with one or two high-angle edge-leading passes. Polishing and stropping and you've got a sharp knife in just a couple of minutes, and the edge will last pretty well for cutting food.
R2 will hold an edge longer than either, but it's a lot more difficult to sharpen and may not feel as sharp as easily as the carbon steels. Note: "more difficult" doesn't mean "difficult," But it will take longer and somewhat better technique to really get everything you can out of the edge.
Mileage may vary of course. If someone wants stainless, I would happily recommend R2/SG2 to them.
Enough to tell a difference. A few extra days/a week worth of knife work..How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse
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What knife characteristic are you looking for exactly? Best edge retention?How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse
How much differs percentage wise between them? Estimate ofcourse
As long as you're not violent with the edges, and we're assuming equivalent HT, let's say that AS edges will last 10% or 15% longer than A2. What you cut might change that up of course. R2 should last a solid 30 or 40% longer still at minimum, but it may not ever feel as sharp at it's peak. My sharpest-feeling knives are AS: it's easy to make them stupidly sharp, and once they are, they last suitably long at that level.
I think Larrin has some difficulty sourcing Japanese steels. Minimum orders and some memory that says it can be challenging to buy at all if you haven't worked in Japan. Not sure how true that is anymore.
That sounds similar to what I've heard - if you want to import it yourself and don't have magic connections, you have to buy a ton minimum or something. Someone like Carter, who is wired in Japan, can access smaller quantities of Shirogami for his work.
One big factor is cutting acidic stuff. Even though some think it's a controversial topic, but IMO it has a major effect.
We used to go thru about 15-20 kg of tomatoes and maybe 5 kg of lemons plus everything else on top of that every day in a super busy kitchen.
White2 lasts me about a day
With B2 I get by about 2-3 work days
with SKD I get by 5 days
Itinomonn is thought to be A2 or SKD or similar and gets me by about 4-5 days
With R2 about 5 days too
And VG10 and Ginsan also about 5 days.
At that point all of them still cut OK. My coworkers still think they cut great, but for me that's when it's time to put them on some stones. I'm aware my results don't reflect the popular views, but what can I do? That's what I got with my knives when I was at the prep station. Like I just don't get any major benefit from R2 compared to SKD. And I can't get passed 5 days with any steel. Not even Hap40.
Biggest difference for me is that White2 gets wrecked with tomatoes etc. B2 can handle them a bit better. Semi Stainless will be affected only a little and SS not at all. If I drop the acidic stuff out of the equation the White2 lasts 2-3 days and B2 3-4 days. Other steels mentioned won't be affected.
But in a home kitchen we're probably talking about weeks or months of use to get to the same volume.
We used to go thru about 15-20 kg of tomatoes and maybe 5 kg of lemons plus everything else on top of that every day in a super busy kitchen.
White2 lasts me about a day
With B2 I get by about 2-3 work days
with SKD I get by 5 days
Itinomonn is thought to be A2 or SKD or similar and gets me by about 4-5 days
With R2 about 5 days too
And VG10 and Ginsan also about 5 days.
At that point all of them still cut OK. My coworkers still think they cut great, but for me that's when it's time to put them on some stones. I'm aware my results don't reflect the popular views, but what can I do? That's what I got with my knives when I was at the prep station. Like I just don't get any major benefit from R2 compared to SKD. And I can't get passed 5 days with any steel. Not even Hap40.
Biggest difference for me is that White2 gets wrecked with tomatoes etc. B2 can handle them a bit better. Semi Stainless will be affected only a little and SS not at all. If I drop the acidic stuff out of the equation the White2 lasts 2-3 days and B2 3-4 days. Other steels mentioned won't be affected.
But in a home kitchen we're probably talking about weeks or months of use to get to the same volume.
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It’s interesting to me that you found r2 retention to be about the same as skd. I found r2 to last a bit longer than skd and ginsan. Generally speaking.
I get your feeling on that. What I consider sharp is orders of magnitude finer than what most people I know would consider sharp. The instant I have pulling on tomato skin or can even just feel that the edge isn't perfectly consistent, I start reaching for stones. A stitch in time saves nine or some such. Plus, I don't work, so I have tons of free time.
One of those "mileage may vary" moments.
As an aside, isn't it great that we all have our own experiences and preferences? Some of us wouldn't sully their hands with stainless, some only want it, some want the mix. My very first experience with AS had me convinced that it sucked. An AS knife that was sharp as hell out of the box couldn't cleanly slice a tomato at the end of a couple hours prep. I sharpened it, it was sharp, and after two meal preps, it was again feeling dull, skipping on pepper skin. It was really this knife that made me both develop my sharpening skills and not worry about putting somewhat expensive steel on the stone in it's first week in my possession. The next time, instead of maintaining the OOTB edge, I thinned the hell out of the knife and rebuilt the edge from scratch. It took forever on a 1K stone. But damnit if I didn't get it stupid sharp, and, lots of prep sessions later, it's STILL the sharpest knife on my board and the edge is basically flawless. Bow down to AS for sharp edges that last "long enough."
And saying that, I still don't think I'd personally want to use a carbon steel knife in most restaurant situations. I baby my tools, but sometimes, you just can't, and having some extra edge retention combined with not having to worry if you leave onion juice on it because an emergency cropped up would make me feel better about the whole process. Yet another "mileage may vary" moment.
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Takeda 240 suji was hands down the best knife for tomatoes I’ve ever used. AS steel-particularly Takeda can get crazy toothy and hold on to its toothiness for quite awhile (2-3k edge) which I found perfect for tomatoes. But overall it’s definitely not. Anywhere close to being a fave steel of mine.
I realize that, I know it should do better, but what can I say?
If I really try hard I might see small difference for the R2, but really not big enough to make a real noticable impact. Also it could be that it's just a point where I already want a sharper tool and that point is reached about the same time with the steels mentioned.
If I push past that point the R2 does fair better and lasts longer with still having a working edge. I'll get a about a day more with the others. But even then I really don't get R2 steels expected ultra long edge retention. Maybe a days worth more or so over the SKD and Ginsan. But at that time It's not really very enjoyable to use.
Also could be some difference in sharpening. I usually go only to 3000 grit and strop. Works well for me in the kitchen. Maybe if I'd push it higher to 5000 to 6000, that starting point might effect the results?
Still I really like the R2 steel a lot. Great for tomatoes also.
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Oh perhaps my favorite thing about blazen and takamura r2 knives are their ability to hold on to a 6k edge for an impressive amount of time. If you don’t have a preference for 6k edges then I could see how you feel meh about r2
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DavidPF
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Proving that the exact same piece of steel holds its edge differently when the geometry is changed. And proving that it's possible for people to think they're judging a type of steel when actually they're judging a knife, or a knife maker, or even judging how well the knife was just sharpened.
I can't claim (and don't want to claim) that you get it wrong or that any individual gets it wrong, but it's obvious that there's a lot of room for error in comparing types of steel - unless all the knives have perfectly equal profiles and grinds, and start out perfectly equally sharpened. (Not perfectly sharp, just perfectly equal)
This is exactly the issue in all these comparisons and opinions.
In addition you also need to identify what is making your edge dull, is it chipping, is it deforming, corrosion, wear? Depending on the mechanism different steels would show relatively different edge longevity even with exactly the same geometry.
The article by Larrin linked above is the best we have for wear. If wear is not your concern then you need to look at other attributes.
As a side note can we please stop calling aogami 2 a2, a2 is a different steel also used for kitchen knives and it is confusing.
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Takamura HSPS line comes ootb with a very low bevel...just crazy sharp...only other knife where I’ve seen anything remotely close to it is watanabe. Both are quite brittle.
Put a microbevel on it. Or just sharpen it normally.
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Definitely did just that
I agree with everything you said here. All of this is correct in my view, and it's what my anecdote was reaching for (and evidently failing to find - shouldn't have left the answer on the top shelf of the pantry). It's more or less why I kept repeating "assuming identically good heat treatment and construction" which is something that, honestly, wouldn't be likely even on two of the same model kinves in the same steel by the same smith. "Artisan" implies variance.
Sorry - I was just abbreviating to not have to keep typing aogami. Given the context of the thread, asking specifically about those three steels, I didn't fighre there would be any confusion.
That was exactly the scene on the knife I ref above. It also had a ton of hollow grind on both sides and I wanted that gone as well.
White and takefu Shiro seem to take a beating in acid, especially if it's halfway between sharpenings.
Good tip.
I haven't really seriously used my 6 k for a couple years now. Only a few occasions playing with carbons. Other than that haven't done that with my knives in the rotation. It's worked so well that really didn't see the need. But I'll surely check it out now.
I don't think R2 is meh at all. Any Steel that gets me thru about 5 days those battles is wonderful in my book. I haven't been disappointed in the R2, but rather surprised with the Ginsan and SKD.
After Covid though I don't work in the same kitchen and for our food truck, which is my source of income since then, I don't have even remotely the same amount of prep I used to do. So it's going to be hard to judge with different circumstances. Though I will get to see differences between steels. Will probably take several weeks now compared to the few days it took to go thru one knife before.
@ Barmoley I was talking about the A2 tool steel, not Aogami2.
It seems A2 and Ao2 could work.
B#2 is widely used. Not like it takes longer typing it neither.
Hence why, even within context, best stick with abbreviations that bear no confusion.
