Are there any disadvantages to wide bevels?

[Barry's Knives]

I've seen people posting things like "wide bevels aren't for me" but if there easier to thin and maintain, what are the disadvantages?

 

[madelinez]

They tend to wedge in harder produce like sweet potatoes.

 

[zizirex]

I've seen people posting things like "wide bevels aren't for me" but if there easier to thin and maintain, what are the disadvantages?

You can't really hone it with a ceramic honing rod, slightly harder to sharpen(kinda like single bevel but on both sides where hand placement and pressure matters), bad skill/stones will ruin the finish, etc...

 

[CiderBear]

To add to @Barry's Knives' question: how can I tell whether a knife is truly wide bevel (think Tsubaya Tanaka and Kagekiyo) or just has a wide shinogi aesthetics (recent batches of Mazaki)?

 

[labor of love]

To add to @Barry's Knives' question: how can I tell whether a knife is truly wide bevel (think Tsubaya Tanaka and Kagekiyo) or just has a wide shinogi aesthetics (recent batches of Mazaki)?

You can run your finger over the blade and feel a distinct beginning of the grind. My shigehiro has just Kasumi finish but you can feel it. It also becomes evident the first time you thin the knife.

 

[CiderBear]

You can run your finger over the blade and feel a distinct beginning of the grind. My shigehiro has just Kasumi finish but you can feel it. It also becomes evident the first time you thin the knife.

Is your Shigehiro a wide bevel?

 

[labor of love]

I guess technically it isn’t, I dunno I don’t want to get lost in the terminology. My only point is that is a very distinct shinogi that’s hidden under the finish. More distinct that many knives w polished blade roads.

 

[Kippington]

Wide bevels sit quite badly on the scale of food release vs food separation.
They have limited distal taper too.

 

[Matus]

The width of the bevel plays an important role. Knives were the wide
bevel is on the narrow side can have excellent food release and separation. My Moritaka and Takeda nakiris and gyuto by Bryan are very good examples.

 

[CiderBear]

My Tsubaya Tanaka has hilariously terrible food release, but it flies through dense 2" horse carrots

 

[Kippington]

The width of the bevel plays an important role. Knives were the wide
bevel is on the narrow side can have excellent food release and separation. My Moritaka and Takeda nakiris and gyuto by Bryan are very good examples.

Oh yeah I keep forgetting about those. I don't think I'll ever naturally think of them as a wide bevel... they sit in a different category for me.

I guess what I said only applies to wide-wide bevels.

 

[Barry's Knives]

My Tsubaya Tanaka has hilariously terrible food release, but it flies through dense 2" horse carrots

And if you put a clam edge o it would you still expect the same problem?

 

[madelinez]

I don't really think Takeda is a wide bevel, that grind has its own problems though. I was more thinking of the second photo Kip posted.

 

[XooMG]

And if you put a clam edge o it would you still expect the same problem?

Putting a thicker near-edge geometry on a thin bevel usually reduces cutting performance and increases stickiness. Separation in a cut is not enhanced in the first few mm behind the edge.

 

[TRPV4]

Wide bevels sit quite badly on the scale of food release vs food separation.
They have limited distal taper too.

What would you mean by "scale of food release vs food separation'?

Also some people like their wide bevels a lot, what would be the advantages? better release?

 

[NO ChoP!]

I think aesthetically it is a pain to maintain, or you just have to accept swirls on half your knife. Have you ever seen a user yanagi? Not pretty. And who has the time to polish it out on nats or finger stones constantly?

 

[Barry's Knives]

I think aesthetically it is a pain to maintain, or you just have to accept swirls on half your knife. Have you ever seen a user yanagi? Not pretty. And who has the time to polish it out on nats or finger stones constantly?

If you polish well even with synthetics this isnt a problem thougb. Once you've set up a decent base you can get an even finish every time

 

[NO ChoP!]

Well, they aren't for me. I spend more time worrying about how it looks than actually how sharp it is. I am a very simple sharpener. A few quick passes to expose fresh steel, a few passes to polish; done...on to the next.

 

[Barry's Knives]

Putting a thicker near-edge geometry on a thin bevel usually reduces cutting performance and increases stickiness. Separation in a cut is not enhanced in the first few mm behind the edge.

What about a convex grind wide bevel? Togaashi is a good example. Basically I cant foresee how having a wide bevel would make food release worse if it was still ground with this in mind. https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/in-stock-1/products/aaa-026-24-fa240

 

[Kippington]

What about a convex grind wide bevel? Togaashi is a good example. Basically I cant foresee how having a wide bevel would make food release worse if it was still ground with this in mind. https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/in-stock-1/products/aaa-026-24-fa240

To define a wide bevel, it would have to have a shinogi line (or shoulders) running definitively down the length of the blade. To do this requires some extra meat directly in that area.
So basically, no matter how well you make a wide bevel - even if it behaves better than any other wide bevel in existence - the performance could still be improved by removing the shinogi / shoulders. Doing so will have one of two effects: In the case of a laser wide bevel, removing the shoulders helps to rid the knife of huge flat spots coming into contact with the food, increasing food release. In the case of a workhorse wide-bevel, removing the shoulders will help stop the knife acting like a wedge monster, increasing food separation. Then there is an overlap of the two effects at the grey area in the middle.

I wanna make it clear though, this is just to answer the question:

...what are the disadvantages?

Please don't forget there are also advantages to this style, and to take my over-simplified explanation to mean"wide-bevels are inherently bad" would be inaccurate and unfair. There are some really nice ones out there, and in many cases food release and food separation are simply not relevant.

 

[Kippington]

https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/in-stock-1/products/aaa-026-24-fa240

I modified a picture from your link, it's very subtle...

 

[Barry's Knives]

To define a wide bevel, it would have to have a shinogi line (or shoulders) running definitively down the length of the blade. To do this requires some extra meat directly in that area.
So basically, no matter how well you make a wide bevel - even if it behaves better than any other wide bevel in existence - the performance could still be improved by removing the shinogi / shoulders. Doing so will have one of two effects: In the case of a laser wide bevel, removing the shoulders helps to rid the knife of huge flat spots coming into contact with the food, increasing food release. In the case of a workhorse wide-bevel, removing the shoulders will help stop the knife acting like a wedge monster, increasing food separation. Then there is an overlap of the two effects at the grey area in the middle.

I wanna make it clear though, this is just to answer the question:

Please don't forget there are also advantages to this style, and to take my over-simplified explanation to mean"wide-bevels are inherently bad" would be inaccurate and unfair. There are some really nice ones out there, and in many cases food release and food separation are simply not relevant.

Thanks for the informative reply!! Very interesting.