Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.

[cotedupy]

Nice post!

By-the-by... the leather crafting community call this dye "vinegaroon"....

I like that word... Kind of makes me think of the wild west. That might not be a good thing, given I am probably thinking about spittoons... Though... I imagine those would also contain some hellava nasty 'natural' brown staining liquids

It is a good word! Made even better I think if you slip into a Scottish accent. In the same way that 'motorbike' should really be in Geordie, and it's basically imperative to do 'ratatouille' in Welsh.

 

[Greasylake]

I like that word... Kind of makes me think of the wild west. That might not be a good thing, given I am probably thinking about spittoons... Though... I imagine those would also contain some hellava nasty 'natural' brown staining liquids

When you say vinegaroon, this is what I think of. Neat little dudes, they spray acid that smells like vinegar, hence their name.

 

[anko]

https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/cleaver.htm
Something a bit different from Watanabe. A few new white #1 cleavers up on his site. I haven't seen them (or any knives) from him in this steel before.

Anybody know how he is doing the KU on these? The orange handle for example, looks like the process is scrub random parts of it with steel wool and let water sit on it overnight?

 

[drrayeye]

Until we begin to consider the many cleavers on AliExpress, these discussions get pretty predicable. Dissatisfied with the usual suspects here, I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 about a year ago, and a smaller Xinzuo Zhen 6.8" cleaver a few months ago. Both have worked out well for me.

There are many more alternatives posted on AliExpress that seem worth considering--many available on AMAZON or EBAY as well.

 

[drrayeye]

Until we begin to consider the many cleavers on AliExpress, these discussions get pretty predicable. Dissatisfied with the usual suspects here, I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 about a year ago, and a smaller Xinzuo Zhen 6.8" cleaver a few months ago. Both have worked out well for me.

There are many more alternatives posted on AliExpress that seem worth considering--many available on AMAZON or EBAY as well.

I've now reviewed this entire thread, and see even more reason to consider some of the alternatives. There are many interesting products well worth considering--some quite expensive--even powder steel. Delivery times are inconsistent. I've had several arrive within a week or two--and one that took two months!

 

[kpham12]

Until we begin to consider the many cleavers on AliExpress, these discussions get pretty predicable. Dissatisfied with the usual suspects here, I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 about a year ago, and a smaller Xinzuo Zhen 6.8" cleaver a few months ago. Both have worked out well for me.

There are many more alternatives posted on AliExpress that seem worth considering--many available on AMAZON or EBAY as well.

Shibazi is pretty well known to have a good product, especially for the price range of $30-$50. I’ve sharpened a few “Zhen” brand vegetable cleavers for people and the “VG-10” used is decent and the grinds I’ve seen on them were better than expected.

But if you just type “Chinese cleaver” into Amazon, eBay, or AliExpress, 99% of the results are Chinese off brands, many of which are clearly the same knife under different names with slightly different marketing. They have the same or similar fake Damascus patterns, “kurouchi” finishes, hammer patterns, etc and are almost all some variant of “CrCoMov” steel, “VG-10” or undisclosed carbon steel.

Can you post some examples of these AliExpress cleavers? Which of the “usual suspects” discussed in the thread are you comparing them to?

 

[drrayeye]

The "usual suspects" are CCK and Sugimoto, they are the ones I actually went to look at first. I think that my Shibazi f208-2 is basically a CCK with an updated appearance--maybe even sharing the same manufacturer. The alternative traditional manufacturer is Deng, which is a completely different design approach and a modern design version that they are clearly promoting.

The more interesting recent competitors Hezhen and Xinzuo are really the same company, and Hezhen has an apparent upgrade to the F208-2, with slightly harder steel.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616583574733723667e0110!12000028939252290!rec
Zinzuo has a designer Lan series that have cleavers with powder steel:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616583577150743816e0110!12000028302718468!rec
There are quite a few more I could list

 

[blokey]

The "usual suspects" are CCK and Sugimoto, they are the ones I actually went to look at first. I think that my Shibazi f208-2 is basically a CCK with an updated appearance--maybe even sharing the same manufacturer. The alternative traditional manufacturer is Deng, which is a completely different design approach and a modern design version that they are clearly promoting.

The more interesting recent competitors Hezhen and Xinzuo are really the same company, and Hezhen has an apparent upgrade to the F208-2, with slightly harder steel.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616583574733723667e0110!12000028939252290!rec
Zinzuo has a designer Lan series that have cleavers with powder steel:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616583577150743816e0110!12000028302718468!rec
There are quite a few more I could list

They definitely do not share a manufacture, the grind on CCK and ShiBaZi are very different, with CCK being a lot thinner, I would avoid some of the manufacturers here, Xinzuo is a huge disappointment, the grind is just ok, the "upgraded" handle is a huge downgrade in terms of comfort and balance.

 

[drrayeye]

They definitely do not share a manufacture, the grind on CCK and ShiBaZi are very different, with CCK being a lot thinner, I would avoid some of the manufacturers here, Xinzuo is a huge disappointment, the grind is just ok, the "upgraded" handle is a huge downgrade in terms of comfort and balance.

Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.

I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.

I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.

Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:



Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:

 

[blokey]

Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.

I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.

I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.

Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:



Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:

YangJiang is a huge manufacturing hub, nearly 90% of Chinese knives comes out of there, and it is not the evidence CCK and ShiBaZi share a factory, especially when ShiBaZi do their own manufacturing.
Non of the knife comparison you mentioned here are considered high performing knife here, if wouldn't surprise me they think it's on pair with those, even a $15 Dexter is in pair with Ikon's performance. I don't think ChefPanko is a credible source here, I owned several knives he reviewed and none of them included Japanese ones and Chinese ones impress me, and the he often confuse harness with wear resistance and given unrealistic figures on how long a knife would last without sharpening.

 

[blokey]

Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.

I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.

I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.

Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:



Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:

Btw CCK likely uses SK5/T8 steel in their carbon knives, non of Shibazi share the steel.

 

[drrayeye]

YangJiang is a huge manufacturing hub, nearly 90% of Chinese knives comes out of there, and it is not the evidence CCK and ShiBaZi share a factory, especially when ShiBaZi do their own manufacturing.
Non of the knife comparison you mentioned here are considered high performing knife here, if wouldn't surprise me they think it's on pair with those, even a $15 Dexter is in pair with Ikon's performance. I don't think ChefPanko is a credible source here, I owned several knives he reviewed and none of them included Japanese ones and Chinese ones impress me, and the he often confuse harness with wear resistance and given unrealistic figures on how long a knife would last without sharpening.

I am just a home cook, and all my evaluations are for tasks I perform in a home kitchen. My evaluations do jibe pretty well with reviews that I see on the internet. I've held and hefted a large variety of CCK and Sugimoto cleavers as well as the Shibazi and Xinzuo that I own.

Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.

It's not clear to me how much face to face contact you've had with any of the knives you comment on. If you haven't done so already, it's time to try these products out in your own home kitchen--possibly with those credentialed collaborators you might know who are home cooks--and see what you think then. That's what I've done.

 

[drrayeye]

Btw CCK likely uses SK5/T8 steel in their carbon knives, non of Shibazi share the steel.

Except for enthusiasts, there really isn't much of a market for carbon steel among professionals. It's partly sanitary regulations, partly best practice. When not in use, some restaurant workers toss their knives into a pail of water.

However, I've seen Shibazi carbon steel cleavers on sale at AliExpress--and all the cleavers listed on AliExpress disclose the steel they're made of. Doesn't that make you suspicious when CCK doesn't?

 

[blokey]

Except for enthusiasts, there really isn't much of a market for carbon steel among professionals. It's partly sanitary regulations, partly best practice. When not in use, some restaurant workers toss their knives into a pail of water.

However, I've seen Shibazi carbon steel cleavers on sale at AliExpress--and all the cleavers listed on AliExpress disclose the steel they're made of. Doesn't that make you suspicious when CCK doesn't?

Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.

 

[blokey]

I am just a home cook, and all my evaluations are for tasks I perform in a home kitchen. My evaluations do jibe pretty well with reviews that I see on the internet. I've held and hefted a large variety of CCK and Sugimoto cleavers as well as the Shibazi and Xinzuo that I own.

Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.

It's not clear to me how much face to face contact you've had with any of the knives you comment on. If you haven't done so already, it's time to try these products out in your own home kitchen--possibly with those credentialed collaborators you might know who are home cooks--and see what you think then. That's what I've done.

Being a sushi chef do not require any training from Japan, even being trained in Japan doesn't mean anything. Anyone can email manufacturers and ask, and easier for me, Chinese is my first language. I have tried many of the knives mentioned by him, and I'm not impressed, i even suspect he's paid by some of the manufacturer as some of them have serious flaws.

 

[drrayeye]

Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.

Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.

 

[tostadas]

I am just a home cook, and all my evaluations are for tasks I perform in a home kitchen. My evaluations do jibe pretty well with reviews that I see on the internet. I've held and hefted a large variety of CCK and Sugimoto cleavers as well as the Shibazi and Xinzuo that I own.

Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.

It's not clear to me how much face to face contact you've had with any of the knives you comment on. If you haven't done so already, it's time to try these products out in your own home kitchen--possibly with those credentialed collaborators you might know who are home cooks--and see what you think then. That's what I've done.

I did a comparison at one point between my CCk and Shibazi f208. They do not share many similarities

 

[M1k3]

Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.

LOL Dexter sani-safe, Mercer Millennia and Cozzini's are stainless.

 

[blokey]

Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.

Hardly a gossip, VG10 export ban is well known, even ChefPanko disclosed it once,Buying a Japanese VG10 Damascus Chef's Knife from China - ChefPanko, you can also contact Takefu directly. Contact｜TAKEFU SPECIAL STEEL CO., LTD.

LOL Dexter sani-safe, Mercer Millennia and Cozzini's are stainless.

TBH I mean some professionals do use carbon steel knives, especially in Sushi kitchens where white#2 single bevels are really common, stainless beaters are still the majority.

 

[tostadas]

I'd also like to point out that I'm an expert in this matter, and all others as well. Because this is, after all, the internet.

 

[drrayeye]

Being a sushi chef do not require any training from Japan, even being trained in Japan doesn't mean anything. Anyone can email manufacturers and ask, and easier for me, Chinese is my first language. I have tried many of the knives mentioned by him, and I'm not impressed, i even suspect he's paid by some of the manufacturer as some of them have serious flaws.

Again. Gossip. The practical bottom line is that I carried out a search for a Chinese Vegetable cleaver that would fit my home cook batterie--and a bit over a year ago chose the Shibazi f208-2. Since that time, I've enjoyed using it along side the other knives in my batterie. It's changed my thinking about certain knife work.

It's also partially led me to look for a slightly wider slightly sharper possible replacement for the nakiri I got as a gift when I was living in Japan almost 30 years ago. I ended up with the Xinzuo Zhen 6..8" and a Kai Shun Kanso 7" Asian utility knife that I compared against each other. I found that the Chinese Zhen fit my batterie the best. The Kai Shun KIanso became the backup.

 

[kpham12]

The "usual suspects" are CCK and Sugimoto, they are the ones I actually went to look at first. I think that my Shibazi f208-2 is basically a CCK with an updated appearance--maybe even sharing the same manufacturer. The alternative traditional manufacturer is Deng, which is a completely different design approach and a modern design version that they are clearly promoting.

The more interesting recent competitors Hezhen and Xinzuo are really the same company, and Hezhen has an apparent upgrade to the F208-2, with slightly harder steel.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616583574733723667e0110!12000028939252290!rec
Zinzuo has a designer Lan series that have cleavers with powder steel:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...616583577150743816e0110!12000028302718468!rec
There are quite a few more I could list

The Xinzuo Lan series is advertised as “powder steel”, but if you look at the pictures, they state it’s 14Cr14MoVNb steel. Not a powdered steel, just more marketing mumbo jumbo.

I don’t know about Xinzuo and Hezhen being the same company, but I’m not surprised. Easier to fake competition and sell more of the same knives under different names. I’ve sharpened a couple Hezhen chef knife sets and the same nakiri as in the video you posted and the grinds are just kind of flattish and thick behind the edge.



You can see at the 2:45 in the Chef Panko video he struggles to use the Hezhen nakiri to cut the end off a carrot, then just skips to another vegetable. These Chinese OEM knife companies mass produce and mass heat treat their knives with poor quality control and spend most of their money marketing/advertising. Dalstrong is probably the most well known example.

Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.

I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.

I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.

Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:



Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:

Shun Kaji and Miyabi birchwood are on the mass produced side of the spectrum and are not indicative of the performance of most of the Japanese knives discussed in this thread or on this forum. Have you compared to any individual Japanese smith/maker?

Except for enthusiasts, there really isn't much of a market for carbon steel among professionals. It's partly sanitary regulations, partly best practice. When not in use, some restaurant workers toss their knives into a pail of water.

However, I've seen Shibazi carbon steel cleavers on sale at AliExpress--and all the cleavers listed on AliExpress disclose the steel they're made of. Doesn't that make you suspicious when CCK doesn't?

Tons of pros use carbon steel. There are no sanitary regulations against carbon steel knives, I don’t know where you’re getting that misinformation from.

Why would anyone be suspicious of CCK? They’ve been making a proven product for a long time. Cleavers with nice thin grinds that are easy to sharpen. Have you actually used them, or just “held and hefted” them?

Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.

Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.

It’s well documented that Chinese “VG-10” is not real VG-10. Also, you asked him if he’s had “face to face” contact with the products he’s referring to like CCK and he said he’s talked to them and you just dismiss it offhand? Lol.

 

[drrayeye]

I'd also like to point out that I'm an expert in this matter, and all others as well. Because this is, after all, the internet.

Absolutely! I'm convinced.

 

[blokey]

Again. Gossip. The practical bottom line is that I carried out a search for a Chinese Vegetable cleaver that would fit my home cook batterie--and a bit over a year ago chose the Shibazi f208-2. Since that time, I've enjoyed using it along side the other knives in my batterie. It's changed my thinking about certain knife work.

It's also partially led me to look for a slightly wider slightly sharper possible replacement for the nakiri I got as a gift when I was living in Japan almost 30 years ago. I ended up with the Xinzuo Zhen 6..8" and a Kai Shun Kanso 7" Asian utility knife that I compared against each other. I found that the Chinese Zhen fit my batterie the best. The Kai Shun KIanso became the backup.

Apart from last part which is just my frustration with his recommandations I do not see any of that is gossip, it is very easy to contact manufacturers on Aliexpress or TaoBao. ShiBaZi F208-2 is a very good knife, I'm glad you like it, unlike many Aliexpress brand, ShiBaZi is a reputable brand who does their own manufacturing, not just throw labels on OEM blades. Zhen is manufactures in Taiwan tho, if you like their shape but don't like the handle Chopper King is also a good choice. Also sharper blade really just depends on the sharpening practice not individual brand.

 

[drrayeye]

The Xinzuo Lan series is advertised as “powder steel”, but if you look at the pictures, they state it’s 14Cr14MoVNb steel. Not a powdered steel, just more marketing mumbo jumbo.

I don’t know about Xinzuo and Hezhen being the same company, but I’m not surprised. Easier to fake competition and sell more of the same knives under different names. I’ve sharpened a couple Hezhen chef knife sets and the same nakiri as in the video you posted and the grinds are just kind of flattish and thick behind the edge.



You can see at the 2:45 in the Chef Panko video he struggles to use the Hezhen nakiri to cut the end off a carrot, then just skips to another vegetable. These Chinese OEM knife companies mass produce and mass heat treat their knives with poor quality control and spend most of their money marketing/advertising. Dalstrong is probably the most well known example.


Shun Kaji and Miyabi birchwood are on the mass produced side of the spectrum and are not indicative of the performance of most of the Japanese knives discussed in this thread or on this forum. Have you compared to any individual Japanese smith/maker?


Tons of pros use carbon steel. There are no sanitary regulations against carbon steel knives, I don’t know where you’re getting that misinformation from.

Why would anyone be suspicious of CCK? They’ve been making a proven product for a long time. Cleavers with nice thin grinds that are easy to sharpen. Have you actually used them, or just “held and hefted” them?



It’s well documented that Chinese “VG-10” is not real VG-10. Also, you asked him if he’s had “face to face” contact with the products he’s referring to like CCK and he said he’s talked to them and you just dismiss it offhand? Lol.

The bottom line for me is simple. I'm a home cook hobbyist that has developed a batterie that does a great job helping me carry out tasks. Each knife that I've chosen since I started was task specific, and needed to meet subjective economic criteria (a SEU) to justify a purchase. One foundational knife I built my batterie was an American carbon steel butcher knife, and the other was a Kai Seki Magoroku nakiri I was given by a family I frequently visited when I was living there.

I have a former doctoral student from Japan who has worked with me searching for Japanese-American fusion: me getting educated on his perspective and going a bit East; he learning my American perspective and going a bit West. He's worked in restaurants in Japan before coming here.

Right now, all my batterie slots are full, and all the knives that I need in my kitchen are physically out and grabbable. I'm always open to upgrades--all my "slots" are up for competition.

So far, I've been unable to justify a single Artisan knife for my home batterie. If I were back in Japan, it might be different.

 

[drrayeye]

Apart from last part which is just my frustration with his recommandations I do not see any of that is gossip, it is very easy to contact manufacturers on Aliexpress or TaoBao. ShiBaZi F208-2 is a very good knife, I'm glad you like it, unlike many Aliexpress brand, ShiBaZi is a reputable brand who does their own manufacturing, not just throw labels on OEM blades. Zhen is manufactures in Taiwan tho, if you like their shape but don't like the handle Chopper King is also a good choice. Also sharper blade really just depends on the sharpening practice not individual brand.

It's Xinzuo Zhen.

 

[blokey]

It's Xinzao Zhen.

I think you mean Xinzuo. Then that's a Chinese brand.

 

[kpham12]

The bottom line for me is simple. I'm a home cook hobbyist that has developed a batterie that does a great job helping me carry out tasks. Each knife that I've chosen since I started was task specific, and needed to meet subjective economic criteria (a SEU) to justify a purchase. One foundational knife I built my batterie was an American carbon steel butcher knife, and the other was a Kai Seki Magoroku nakiri I was given by a family I frequently visited when I was living there.

I have a former doctoral student from Japan who has worked with me searching for Japanese-American fusion: me getting educated on his perspective and going a bit East; he learning my American perspective and going a bit West. He's worked in restaurants in Japan before coming here.

Right now, all my batterie slots are full, and all the knives that I need in my kitchen are physically out and grabbable. I'm always open to upgrades--all my "slots" are up for competition.

So far, I've been unable to justify a single Artisan knife for my home batterie. If I were back in Japan, it might be different.

I’m happy for anyone who’s found a knife or knives they like to use at home, at work, wherever.

What I don’t understand is why you would go on a thread called “cleaver chat” and say “these discussions get pretty predictable” and that you are “dissatisfied with the usual suspects here” like CCKs and Sugimotos which you haven’t used in a kitchen, then start calling for people to try alternatives, specifically mass produced Chinese knives from AliExpress, Amazon and eBay.

 

[M1k3]

Am I the only one...




I'll see myself out.

 

[drrayeye]

I’m happy for anyone who’s found a knife or knives they like to use at home, at work, wherever.

What I don’t understand is why you would go on a thread called “cleaver chat” and say “these discussions get pretty predictable” and that you are “dissatisfied with the usual suspects here” like CCKs and Sugimotos which you haven’t used in a kitchen, then start calling for people to try alternatives, specifically mass produced Chinese knives from AliExpress, Amazon and eBay.

I'd love to see discussions by others, like me, who have been using these Aliexpress listed Chinese cleavers on this thread. There's quite a bit of interest already on other blogs and the Youtube--as I've illuistrated with just two examples.