Better option than Dickoron Micro for German knives?

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

Benuser

from The Netherlands, EU.
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
8,681
Reaction score
3,355
The question should be whether a home user needs a honing rod, steel or ceramic. I don't think so. Provided there's a good edge after stone sharpening — and factory edges are generally poor and weak — you may maintain it almost indefinitely with a piece of cardboard and once in a few weeks a few strokes on a fine stone. Full sharpening is rarely necessary.
The Zwilling ceramic rod you mentioned is extremely coarse, and I wonder how people will get rid of the fat burr it creates.
The Dickoron Micro you've mentioned is an excellent tool to maintain an already good edge in a professional environment. It doesn't create a good edge when there was no one before.
A fine ceramic rod may be an intermediate solution if you know very well what you're doing.
In no case the result is better than working on a good stone. And destroying a decent edge with a ceramic rod is very simple.
 

Eloh

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
460
Reaction score
482
Pretty much what benuser said. I would argue though that a dick micro plus a 1k stone is a also good lifetime investment for a minimalistic home setup.... 😉
 

Benuser

from The Netherlands, EU.
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
8,681
Reaction score
3,355
Pretty much what benuser said. I would argue though that a dick micro plus a 1k stone is a also good lifetime investment for a minimalistic home setup.... 😉
And perhaps a piece of Belgian Blue Brocken in case any carbons appear.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2017
Messages
519
Reaction score
671
Location
SW Floriduh
But I have a Zwilling Pro.
And welcome to the internet.... Zwilling is like Toyota or Apple and the like; fully functional and used by millions without issue. But the vocal minority are quick to chime in with their negative opinions about it and how for only 5 times the price you can get a ***** brand that is so much better.

Fact is I have half a dozen Henckels knives I bought as a young cook 30 years ago and they still function perfectly. I expect them to still be fully functional when I retire. Not to mention the fact that they have a lifetime guarantee.

But to address your specific question I'd say almost any F.Dick honing rod will work with them perfectly. Just bear in mind a quality medium-grit (1K) whetstone will make that steel sing both literally and figuratively.
 

DavidPF

Likes Boring Knives
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
1,068
Reaction score
579
Location
Vancouver
The Zwilling ceramic rod you mentioned is extremely coarse, and I wonder how people will get rid of the fat burr it creates.
By not knowing a burr has been created, not knowing to look for one, and in fact not knowing what a burr is, and just using the knife. (DAMHIKT)

Also by being certain that the Zwilling company knows more about maintaining Zwilling knives than some random man on the internet.
 

big_adventure

What impulse control?
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,690
Location
Paris
By not knowing a burr has been created, not knowing to look for one, and in fact not knowing what a burr is, and just using the knife. (DAMHIKT)

A trueism for 98% of home cooks at least, and a lot of pros as well.

Also by being certain that the Zwilling company knows more about maintaining Zwilling knives than some random man on the internet.

Ooooh, you lost me there. Undoubtedly Zwilling has people working for them who know more about maintaining knives then the vast majority of people on the planet, but that is not at all the company's priority. They want to put more product into more people's hands. They sell those rough steels that simply aren't good for blades, they throw them into every knife set they sell knowing outright that 99% of their customers have no idea whatsoever how to use one. They prioritize selling knife sets rather than knives. This is not to insult them - they make a range of products, they make them with metronomic consistency, and they stand behind what they sell forever. I like my fancy tools, but I wouldn't NEED anything more than a Zwilling chef's knife and maybe a paring knife to make literally everything that comes out of my kitchen.

Although I'm never going to spend 459 euros for a Zwilling Twin 20cm. 459 euros????? Are there saphires embedded in the spine of the blade?
 

DavidPF

Likes Boring Knives
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
1,068
Reaction score
579
Location
Vancouver
Ooooh, you lost me there.
Sorry - I didn't mean to lose you - I meant that many people are certain of something that isn't true!

I agree that there are "serious knife people" hidden in the organization somewhere, but they don't control what gets put on the shelf. I'm very sure there are a lot of customers who see that Zwilling sells a coarse steel (and doesn't sell any stones) and conclude that the coarse steel must be the right tool for the job - otherwise why would the company be selling it, right?

It's not true at all - but people are led to believe it and they do believe it.
 

big_adventure

What impulse control?
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,690
Location
Paris
Sorry - I didn't mean to lose you - I meant that many people are certain of something that isn't true!

I agree that there are "serious knife people" hidden in the organization somewhere, but they don't control what gets put on the shelf. I'm very sure there are a lot of customers who see that Zwilling sells a coarse steel (and doesn't sell any stones) and conclude that the coarse steel must be the right tool for the job - otherwise why would the company be selling it, right?

It's not true at all - but people are led to believe it and they do believe it.

Amusingly enough, I realized that is what you probably meant right after I posted my reply. Well, it was 7AM and I do have freaking Covid fever head right now.

I still don't know how they can attempt to charge 459 euros for a soft stainless 200mm chef's knife. I stand by that.
 

Eloh

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
460
Reaction score
482
It's actually not as soft, as it's cronidur 30 steel, I believe at 59-60 hrc.
But it's not like the hardness of a blade makes it more expensive either...
I'm sure the quality of materials and f&f is very good. It's more the question if you like the other characteristics of the knife.
 

big_adventure

What impulse control?
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,690
Location
Paris
It's actually not as soft, as it's cronidur 30 steel, I believe at 59-60 hrc.
But it's not like the hardness of a blade makes it more expensive either...
I'm sure the quality of materials and f&f is very good. It's more the question if you like the other characteristics of the knife.

Oh, I agree with you. I'm sure that the fit and finish of the product are absolute perfection as well - which you would expect from Zwilling. It's just that 459 euros puts you squarely into mid-high tier non-Honyaki artisan work. That Zwilling there could almost be confused for a Pro wood-handle which runs a hundred bucks.
 

Benuser

from The Netherlands, EU.
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
8,681
Reaction score
3,355
By not knowing a burr has been created, not knowing to look for one, and in fact not knowing what a burr is, and just using the knife. (DAMHIKT)
These customers will rapidly find out. The burr will fold over the edge and make the knife perfectly blunt. So, the customer will grasp for the rod again.
 

Eloh

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
460
Reaction score
482
Sure it's not like I would buy it either lol it's just an interesting discussion. Also they are sold for ~350, just ftr

... a suisin wa stainless honyaki costs similar money, wich is considerably simpler constructed and theres not really a lot artistry about it either . It's 'just' thinner...

Again, im not trying to convince anyone to buy these knives lol
 

Michi

I'm having a status just so I don't have no status
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Messages
4,963
Reaction score
10,836
Location
Brisbane, Australia
To me, a honing rod for softer German knives is a good thing to have around. I can keep my Wüsthofs sharp for months at a stretch that way.

As to the old German vs Japanese argument, it really is a bit like arguing whether a pick-up truck or a sports car are the better car, and the discussion sort of misses the point. They are different knives, for different purposes, and with different trade-offs. Match the knife to the job, and you can have a joyful experience no matter which country the knife was made in.
 
Last edited:

big_adventure

What impulse control?
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,690
Location
Paris
Sure it's not like I would buy it either lol it's just an interesting discussion. Also they are sold for ~350, just ftr

... a suisin wa stainless honyaki costs similar money, wich is considerably simpler constructed and theres not really a lot artistry about it either . It's 'just' thinner...

Again, im not trying to convince anyone to buy these knives lol

I was just going by the list price on the Zwilling France website. I'm not going to buy one. :)

I've got a 17 year old Mundial and a 30 year old Wusthof as beaters/loaners/lets-not-worry-about-it blades, and they do the job perfectly well. So well in fact that the Wusthof was lent out about 15 years ago and never came home. :p
 

big_adventure

What impulse control?
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,690
Location
Paris
To me, a honing rod for softer German knives is good thing to have around. I can keep my Wüsthofs sharp for months at a stretch that way.

As to the old German vs Japanese argument, it really is a bit like arguing whether a pick-up truck or a sports car are the better car, and the discussion sort of misses the point. They are different knives, for different purposes, and with different trade-offs. Match the knife to the job, and you can have a joyful experience no matter which country the knife was made in.

This exactly...

When I cut up a pizza in a cardboard box on top of my cooktop, or when I cut through a tart on a glass plate, I sure as heck don't grab one of my nicer blades.
 

Eloh

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
460
Reaction score
482
That was kindof my point too, but with the addition that it really doesn't have to reflect the pricepoint. Zwillings customer base aka most people want a thick edged knife they don't have to put too much care into 😉
And part of this group just want the same carefree knive with higher build quality, materials etc..

The only thing that sucks about it from an enthusiast pov is the fact that the grind is way too thick behind the edge. But If they started making 0,1mm edged knives they would need to change their whole business model, since claims and complaints about destroyed edges would fly in by the second lol
 

Benuser

from The Netherlands, EU.
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
8,681
Reaction score
3,355
Haven't seen recent Zwillings out of the box. Recent Wüsthofs though came with a far too thin V-shaped edge the steel simply doesn't hold — in fact, takes neither, as they weren't capable of deburring it. So the first thing to do was easing the prominent shoulders, and turn the bevels into convexed ones, ending at some 18-20° per side.
Wondering how non-knifenerds are supposed to deal with it.
 

badbeat1

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2021
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Location
Denmark
These customers will rapidly find out. The burr will fold over the edge and make the knife perfectly blunt. So, the customer will grasp for the rod again.
Exactly what happened, which is why I found out I need something else.


It seems most of you don't like German knives - fair enough. But as I've already got a set of Zwilling Pro knives I don't really want to just throw them away. I'm gonna buy the Dickoron Micro - most seem to agree it is the best option for a honing rod, and that having a honing rod is a good idea, as long as I also get the knives sharpened. Some of you have suggested also getting a 1K stone as well. Will sharpen them with only the 1K stone be enough to get them pretty sharp, or would I need one with a higher grid as well?
 

Michi

I'm having a status just so I don't have no status
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Messages
4,963
Reaction score
10,836
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Some of you have suggested also getting a 1K stone as well. Will sharpen them with only the 1K stone be enough to get them pretty sharp, or would I need one with a higher grid as well?
For German knives, there really isn't any point in going much beyond 1000. You can get them shaving sharp on a 1 K stone with a bit of practice, especially if you strop a little afterwards. (All you really need is a bit of cardboard.)
 

big_adventure

What impulse control?
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,690
Location
Paris
Exactly what happened, which is why I found out I need something else.


It seems most of you don't like German knives - fair enough. But as I've already got a set of Zwilling Pro knives I don't really want to just throw them away. I'm gonna buy the Dickoron Micro - most seem to agree it is the best option for a honing rod, and that having a honing rod is a good idea, as long as I also get the knives sharpened. Some of you have suggested also getting a 1K stone as well. Will sharpen them with only the 1K stone be enough to get them pretty sharp, or would I need one with a higher grid as well?

I wouldn't say most of us don't like them as much as most of us see them as, how to put it... blunt instruments (will all possible puns intended) in a world where scalpels exist. But I have my blunt instrument on my mag rail right next to blades costing 6 times as much and I will absolutely use it when it's the best tool for the job. And sometimes it is. There is absolutely no reason to throw away your Zwilling Pros. Those are solid enough knives that will absolutely last a lifetime. Even if you fall down the rabbit hole of "better and better" steel and craftsmanship, those will still have value for what they are. Continued below...

That was kindof my point too, but with the addition that it really doesn't have to reflect the pricepoint. Zwillings customer base aka most people want a thick edged knife they don't have to put too much care into 😉
And part of this group just want the same carefree knive with higher build quality, materials etc..

The only thing that sucks about it from an enthusiast pov is the fact that the grind is way too thick behind the edge. But If they started making 0,1mm edged knives they would need to change their whole business model, since claims and complaints about destroyed edges would fly in by the second lol

Exactly true, all of it. They know what they are doing, business-wise.

Haven't seen recent Zwillings out of the box. Recent Wüsthofs though came with a far too thin V-shaped edge the steel simply doesn't hold — in fact, takes neither, as they weren't capable of deburring it. So the first thing to do was easing the prominent shoulders, and turn the bevels into convexed ones, ending at some 18-20° per side.
Wondering how non-knifenerds are supposed to deal with it.

They just don't, probably. They buy a Chef's Choice pull through or electric and make due with that, or just keep using the knife for years without sharpening and wonder why it takes all of their might to cut through a tomato.

For German knives, there really isn't any point in going much beyond 1000. You can get them shaving sharp on a 1 K stone with a bit of practice, especially if you strop a little afterwards. (All you really need is a bit of cardboard.)

All of this, yes.
 

Iggy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
639
Reaction score
473
When you want to hone a little... Dickoron Micro
if more... Dickoron Sapphire

Best steels out there IMHO

(tried several steels from Victorinox, IKEA, Zwilling, Wüsthof, Eicker, Fiskars etc. and several ceramic rods as well...)
 

ModRQC

Insufferable Member
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
3,890
Reaction score
4,502
Location
QC, CA
Victorinox smooth rod works well - got it for 26$ CAD. Hard chrome plated too. Burnishing the edge is a pretty basic thing many rods can achieve. I'd pay as less as possible and concentrate money on a couple stones rather. SP320 and Bester/Imanishi 1200 seem suited best for soft SS. I'm thinking both AND the victo rod might be have near the price ballpark of some Dick rods I've seen. Then again, don't know how much they are in other countries. Not suggesting SP1K because that's a pretty poor working edge IMO.
 

DavidPF

Likes Boring Knives
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
1,068
Reaction score
579
Location
Vancouver
As to the old German vs Japanese argument, it really is a bit like arguing whether a pick-up truck or a sports car are the better car, and the discussion sort of misses the point. They are different knives, for different purposes, and with different trade-offs. Match the knife to the job, and you can have a joyful experience no matter which country the knife was made in.
I may be in some vanishingly small minority, but I'd be very glad to see this comment prominently stickied someplace. You really said it effectively, and it tends to get forgotten or ignored sometimes. Thanks.
 

ModRQC

Insufferable Member
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
3,890
Reaction score
4,502
Location
QC, CA
The job being, for German profile: rock chop?

Sorry but can’t see much of an advantage for any other use of a typical G Chef vs Gyuto, or of any other western type but perhaps boning which I find useful. If that, or beater, I like Victorinox - tip is more centered on Chefs, Santoku makes more sense profile wise, boning dirt cheap that works until hell’s over. I don’t care much for 150-200$ CAD pure rockers or 100$-150$ boning. Better make that 60$ Chef with versatility, 30$ boning Fibrox, and buy any basic J on top.

A pick-up truck has more than one definite advantage over a sports car. Even half priced Wusthof-Zwilling cheaper series Chef can still just perhaps rock chop better than any other. Toughness to some level is not even a point in this point. Dishwasher still prohibited, throwing against a concrete wall still dumb.

I’m all for throwing in a Vic cheese knife and paring at 10$ each, and some petty for 25$. Only Wusthof I have is a 30$ Pastry/Bread knife. That thing makes sense and cuts nice. 200$ of Victo knives or such cheaper German that make sense can drive anyone homecook and a lot of pros forever. If one evolves from the quality of a Vic, I don’t think either W, Z, Mes, Mer, whatever, can make a real difference.

Easy POV, too.
 

DavidPF

Likes Boring Knives
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
1,068
Reaction score
579
Location
Vancouver
The job being, for German profile: rock chop?
Not necessarily the profile, but the fact that what KKF standards would call "abusing" the knife is for all practical purposes a non-issue. Things that users of Japanese-style knives are frequently warned not to do for fear of permanently damaging their knife or seriously injuring themselves, are common practice for a lot of people - because a lot of people have become accustomed to knives that don't break. Knives that don't break (under practical circumstances) are really a pretty cool invention. :)

(And are sometimes worth sacrificing some sharpness.)
 

Michi

I'm having a status just so I don't have no status
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Messages
4,963
Reaction score
10,836
Location
Brisbane, Australia
The job being, for German profile: rock chop?
Here's a partial list of things that my Wüsthofs can handle, and my Japanese knives most likely can't:
  • Rock chopping
  • Torquing the knife on the board when cutting stubborn/tough produce
  • Dropping the knife on the floor
  • Hitting bone when hacking away at a difficult de-boning job
  • Cutting partially frozen food
  • Having someone put the knife into the dish washer
  • Cutting something on a plate or the BBQ
  • Cutting really hard stuff, such as Queensland Blue pumpkin, very dry beef jerky, hard salami, or aged parmesan
  • Throwing the knife wet into the draining rack after washing it
  • Forgetting the knife on the cutting board after cutting lemons
  • Cutting bread covered in hard seeds with a heavy crust
  • Having guests use the knife who might do who knows what with it
The softer German steel is a lot more forgiving than the really hard Japanese steels. And, while I enjoy the laser-like precision and ease of use of my Japanese knives, I do prepare a fair bit of food that is best cut with something more robust. And sometimes, especially when under time pressure, I really, really do not want to worry about having to wipe the knife down all the time.
 
Last edited:

DavidPF

Likes Boring Knives
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
1,068
Reaction score
579
Location
Vancouver
Here's a partial list of things that my Wüsthofs can handle, and my Japanese knives most likely can't:
The cynic might sum up the list that followed, like this:

- Anything that involves the knife actually getting used.

I do have a Japanese-made knife now and I like it, and it IS useful and good to have a truly sharp knife. But just as ultimate toughness means a dull knife, ultimate sharpness means a fragile knife. Neither one is perfect. Having both and being able to choose is much closer to perfect. :)
 
Top