Butcher knife Question

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Hager

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To start move this post if this in the wrong forum.
Well I'm not a chef, Im a butcher in a small locker and have been for 16 years and my primary job is cutting stakes and roast. I've always used a Victorinox cimeter/scimitar 10" knife every few years the boss buys me a knew one. It about time for a new one and I was think about buying myself a nice bade. What would be the Japanese equivalent to the cimeter? By the way I don't know much when it comes to the knife world!
 
Welcome!

Does your employer allow carbon blades or stainless only for butchering? Same question regarding western handles (sealed with bolsters) vs Japanese wooden/horn handles?

You will want a steel that isn't too brittle as to chip or dullen quickly if it runs against bone once in a while.

Do you refresh the edge on your scimitar with a honing steel in between cuts? Are you looking to be able to do that with the new knife? Or are you looking for a much longer lasting edge that you'll touch up using a stone or strop when the need arises?

I unfortunately can't offer any knife suggestions at this point.

Following this thread as deer season is about to start and a good quality Japanese butcher/scimitar would make a nice addition to the kit.
 
Japanese-style knives get you hard steel and edge/grind asymmetry.
Its not clear either of those are as great a benefit to butchery as to other uses.

Once you are down into 58 hrc to allow for bone and steeling the blade,
you are basically at the same level as mass produced western knives.

Without geometry or hardness benefits, than blade profile become the biggest decision variable.
Curved blade cimeter and bullnose shapes have their fans for very good reason, IMHO.

Many people prefer western boning shapes, and the japanese shapes are no direct substitute.
 
Thanks
Blade material doesn't matter no wood handles per health inspector
I steel my knife often I keep it sharp enough I can shave with it!
 
Just a thought, not sure what kind of budget you have in mind for this blade but maybe you could go the custom route? Get a maker to make you a scimitar with a blade profile and shape you're used to but with a better steel than a run of the mill Victorinox, Forschner or Dexter?
 
StonedEdge said:
Just a thought, not sure what kind of budget you have in mind for this blade but maybe you could go the custom route? Get a maker to make you a scimitar with a blade profile and shape you're used to but with a better steel than a run of the mill Victorinox, Forschner or Dexter?
Click to expand...
Any suggestions on a maker I would want to stay under 300 but you never know?
 
Hager said:
Any suggestions on a maker I would want to stay under 300 but you never know?
Click to expand...
Again, I can't offer any recommendations sadly, having never ordered a custom knife I would be talking out of my arse.

You're located in the US? I'm sure others here can come up with a fairly long list of recommended custom makers.
 
Quick rundown (others, can of course add their own personal views)

1) The deba was really designed for breaking down pelagic fish;
the two-bevel version (ryo-deba) rates only as a passable butchers shape.
2) The gyuto is a hisorically a meat cutter, but is another derivative profile,
and not an ideal butchery shape (ie, a sabatier chef).
contemporary gyuto grinds that are fashionable on KKF (==very thin behind edge)
are further away from design intent of the original knife also
3) The hanging-meat boning knife is too short to do the work of a cimeter (so needw paired with a gyuto or suji)
4) skinning and similar/curved blade alternatives have limited advantages, if any, to western versions.

My butchers knifes are all purchased to take abuse
and do cuts the chef/gyuto won't do as well.
 
Don't think there is an Japanese equivalent to most of the western butchery knives.

Haburn and Marko will produce customs but are priced beyond your 300. Butch Harner makes a nice butcher or bull nose that he sells for about 350. Don't know if he does a Cimitar but wouldn't hurt to ask. FWIW I find a bull nose to be more useful than a scimitar when making big pieces into little pieces.

Of the nicer blades I've found the advantage to be the harder, thinner, steel. Of course that can quickly become a disadvantage when working around bones or frozen product. And they probably would not take to steeling well. The VNox or Wustie Pro may be a pretty optimized solution for a butcher or scimitar. If you want a "special" knife there are some boning knives that are nice and won't break the bank.

Deer season is almost here. Gotta dust off that kit.
 
if not japanese are there any high quality manufacturer of Scimitar. I want something fun not just a work knife
 
Hager said:
if not japanese are there any high quality manufacturer of Scimitar. I want something fun not just a work knife
Click to expand...

I worked in a whole animal butcher shop for a little while. Other than the Ittinomon and
Munetoshi butcher knives (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-210mm-wa-slicer/), I've not really seen Japanese equivalents to Western butcher knives.
I haven't used either of them, however.

Every one I worked with either used F Dick or Victorinox rosewood handle or old American carbon, a la Foster Bros, Goodell, or Dexter. I personally use a carbon Dexter boning knife and a Foster Bros breaking knife/cimitar. The foster bros is beautiful, as far as I'm concerned, and you can find them in varying degrees of wear and priciness on eBay, or in refurbished and facelifted versions at places like Upbeatvintage on Instagram
 
I use a 210mm Munetoshi slicer that I rehandled with burnt chestnut as a big boning knife/short cimeter. It's a brilliant solution for me since I'm seaming one minute and portioning steaks the next in a totally inadequate space AND it's fun and it's a conversation piece if I'm cutting in front of customers. If you're willing to rehandle yourself with a non-wood or sealed wood alternative, it might work.

It's the one on the bottom: https://instagram.com/p/BTPhFKdll7A/
 
Hager said:
To start move this post if this in the wrong forum.
Well I'm not a chef, Im a butcher in a small locker and have been for 16 years and my primary job is cutting stakes and roast. I've always used a Victorinox cimeter/scimitar 10" knife every few years the boss buys me a knew one. It about time for a new one and I was think about buying myself a nice bade. What would be the Japanese equivalent to the cimeter? By the way I don't know much when it comes to the knife world!
Click to expand...

I'm no knife expert but I have used a Victorinox 10 inch breaking knife for a variety of tasks over 25 years. My gut feeling based on my experience and your background (butcher for 16 years, Victorinox cimeter/scimar 10", etc.) is to go with what has been working for you for the last 16 years. If you need to scratch your itch for a Japanese chef knife, then buy one for home use but don't use it on meats with bones. Probably nothing is tougher and more appropriate than your Victorinox knife and that is why you can use it day in and day out for years. If you can keep that shaving sharp (I tip my hat to you), then that sounds like the perfect knife for your occupation.
 
daveb said:
Butch Harner makes a nice butcher or bull nose that he sells for about 350.
Click to expand...

DSC09071sm.jpg


No idea what this goes for but... sweeeet
 
Hager said:
Thanks
Blade material doesn't matter no wood handles per health inspector
I steel my knife often I keep it sharp enough I can shave with it!
Click to expand...

Not being in the food industry myself, would an inspector allow stabilized wood handles considering they become plastic filled ( my words no one else's ) ?
 
fimbulvetr said:
I use a 210mm Munetoshi slicer that I rehandled with burnt chestnut as a big boning knife/short cimeter. It's a brilliant solution for me since I'm seaming one minute and portioning steaks the next in a totally inadequate space AND it's fun and it's a conversation piece if I'm cutting in front of customers. If you're willing to rehandle yourself with a non-wood or sealed wood alternative, it might work.

It's the one on the bottom: https://instagram.com/p/BTPhFKdll7A/
Click to expand...

Look nice anything this style I would have to get use to and rehandle but definitely an option.
 
HRC_64 said:
I had to google it...

DSC09390sm.jpg


Those look nice.
wonder if that bullnose is 10 inches,
or shorter maybe?
Click to expand...

They look great but the handles. I don't get why all high end knives that I've look at are not legal in my industry or any restaurant
 
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