Coarse stone

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by idemhj, Apr 24, 2015.

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  1. Mar 18, 2019 #31

    Keith Sinclair

    Keith Sinclair

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    Even bought a leather belt for my Kalamazoo 1x42

    The Shapton pro 2k is a great touchup stone for all kinds of knives. It is very dish resistant a true S&G.

    Whatever works for your progression. My quality knives use gesshin soakers. Talking about the chosera 400 versatility, another stone like that on the higher end is the gesshin 4K. It an be used as a stand alone on well trained knives.
     
  2. Mar 18, 2019 #32

    Peter

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    I use naniwa 220. I have two of them so I even them one on each other. Never used diamond plate. I use it to flatten all other stones. I find it hard with no particles poisoning to other stones. I jump from it right to AI1000. I tend to think these days its too big of a jump.
     
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  3. Mar 18, 2019 #33

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    The expensive naniwa 220?
     
  4. Mar 18, 2019 #34

    Peter

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    pink naniwa Traditional series T-901. I doesnt wear much at all.
     
  5. Mar 19, 2019 #35

    never mind

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    Great idea Peter! Are the two somehow flat afterward or you get two convex stones? How often do you lap them or how concave before you lap them, just curious?

     
  6. Mar 19, 2019 #36

    Peter

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    Why they vould be conwex afterwards.
    Afterwards they are true as my conscious. And I give them round after every session of using them. I dont like to push my stones to a visibly changed state. I got them for two years and they hold tight. Not much material removed max 1-3% few mm.

    I have this method from shinichi. It works great
     
  7. Mar 19, 2019 #37
    I find that one can indeed jump from the 220 (I use the pink brick from Bester) to AI1000 (a.k.a. Shapton Pro 1k) when working on the edge. On bevels I would use a 400 stone in between to make the scratch removal easier.
     
  8. Mar 19, 2019 #38

    Foltest

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    Same thing with Shapton pro 120. Jump to 1K on the edge without any issues
     
  9. Mar 19, 2019 #39

    never mind

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    I don’t know about synthetic stones and I do not know why, but I read that Jnats will become convex with a 2 stone flattening method (still good) but the 3 stone rubbing rotation will make them flat, so I asked in the post. If it is a little convex, it’s still fine with me to consider doing, vs. super dished rough stones, so I have felt it is a very interesting method if it works well for synthetics.

    I read that Iwasaki-san (the razor guy) has 3 same finishing stones, for example. The dish of my shapton glass 120x almost reaches the bottom now. Nice stone in my view. Think of what to buy next, maybe the sick black sigma 120x. Good price. Also good info from you, thank you.

     
  10. Mar 21, 2019 #40

    Knife2meatu

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    I would like to find out just how fast the Glass #220 wears, but I'll hopefully be able to restrain myself and endure my ignorance -- I didn't curb my curiosity regarding the Shapton #220 Kuromaku/Pro -- despite the warning signs: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuP0OTjLOY&feature=youtu.be&t=319 -- and it is just such a ridiculously, stupidly fast wearing stone from what I've experienced, particularly given its meager 15mm thinness.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  11. Mar 21, 2019 #41

    Ivan Hersh

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    I started using my Naniwa Chosera #400 then #800 then #2000 , i first used my King #6000 for finishing but felt i need a little better finishing.
    I then used my new King Super Gold#8000 finishing stone for the first time, i quickly noticed that it was really getting the results i wanted.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  12. Mar 21, 2019 #42

    Ivan Hersh

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    That green stone does not look like a Shapton #220 stone, the Shapton #220 i have seen are not green.
     
  13. Mar 21, 2019 #43

    never mind

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    Oh, i think it’s moss color toward the yellow hue (220x shapton pro), where fern color would be toward green shade. The green of 2k shapton pro is greenest i think and the melon one from the 8k is the second greenest. Mint, i say!
     
  14. Mar 22, 2019 #44

    Knife2meatu

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    It's most definitely a Shapton #220.
     
  15. Mar 22, 2019 #45

    Ivan Hersh

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    Shapton Sharpening Ceramic whetstone wirepuller of edge Moss #220 not green.
    https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Shar...#220&qid=1553212989&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull
     
  16. Mar 22, 2019 #46

    Ivan Hersh

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  17. Mar 22, 2019 #47

    never mind

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    Thank you, Ivan Hersh, for your replies to me and Knife2meatu, a link and your participation in the forum. I appreciate your work.



    I also believe you that you saw a green stone in the video, not a moss color stone. I also agree with you that shapton 220x is a moss color.



    If I may elaborate more, from my view how I saw color in that video, I saw it as a moss color like I usually see from shapton 220x, which I might be wrong. When you replied, I thought of Dr. Naka that he would be able to hear what exactly the stone is from stereo sound, or if I study the vdo more thoroughly to pick up from other clues what stone it actually is, but I would leave it at that (I spent too much time on VDOs these days) and believe you that you see the stone as a green color sharpening stone. Perhaps it is.



    Someone may also ask the guy on that VDO on youtube and read more details on the page. I skimed it as the title is shapton 220x where he compared it with his Bestor 220x stone, which he might post the wrong VDO up too, nobody knows these days. Peace.
     
  18. Mar 22, 2019 #48

    Knife2meatu

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    @Ivan Hersh: I see that my link was precisely to a point in the video right after he finished cursing out the Shapton, my bad -- and I now notice that there's a greener stone later on which is a Naniwa Pro #400. The stone he uses at the beginning of the video is most definitely a Shapton #220. Moss, yes -- a most frustrating stone.

    edit: and funny enough, there's also a Naniwa Pro 1k later on -- so I guess it turns out there are a lot of green stones in the video, actually.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  19. Mar 22, 2019 #49

    Ivan Hersh

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    Well anyway it was a thread to remember the video was hard to understand, thought it was just going to be about the Shapton 220x but then there was the large stone in the video.

    But it's now been all explained so all is well, i quickly found out there are a lot of stones being offered, and you get many people making different posts as to how they found them to work.

    With so many different knife steels i understand how these people get different results with their sharping, and why so many stones need flattening sooner then others using the same stones.
     
  20. Mar 22, 2019 #50

    inferno

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    I have both the shapton pro 220 and the glass 220.

    the glass is faster than the pro, maybe 20% faster.
    the glass wears slower than the pro. maybe 20%.

    both wear extremely fast compared to even the glass 500. not mentioning the glass 2k/pro2k's. these maybe wear like 100 times faster no kidding. but they remove material maybe 100 times faster too.

    I mean i can see dishing in the stones from using them for about 1 minute. its not much but yes i can see it fro 50cm away.

    How do i combat this?? I dont. I do however not flatten them, i simply use the sides when they get "high" and then after a few minutes the stone is flat again. I have also noticed they cut faster if you leave the sludge on the stone instead of cleaning it off. and both these stones will produce a lot of stone slurry, if you press hard enough. and you will be since you want to get sh1t done fast, thats the only reason you got these stones in the first place. right.

    And these stones do deliver. My 220 glass is faster cutting than all my diamond stones. even the 160 diaflat! the mother of all diamonds!

    also the glass 220 is 7mm thick not 5mm as someone said. the rest of the higher grit stones are 5mm except for the 500 double thick which is 10mm.

    I'd say both the 2220 glass and pros are very very good and competent stones. these are actually slow wearing for the material they remove imo. but in absolute terms they are very fast wearing.

    I'd say a 7mm glass will wear out in maybe 5-8 flattening/thinning jobs on SS, and the pro maybe last 1-2 rounds more. for actual sharpening and removing chips these will probably last a lifetime. no joke.

    I love both my 220ies, these are so brutal and fast i simply laugh when using them. this cutting action is almost unbelievable. and you will notice stone wear on a similar level.
     
  21. Mar 22, 2019 #51

    inferno

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    yeah almost forgot: the glass you can obviously use up 100% of but the pro will most certainly crack in half at about 5mm thickness or so.

    so either you glue the pro to something or you glue 2 of them together! then you can use up 100% of the stone.
    I have 2 220 pros glued together. but i guess you could glue the stone to whatever you like, I guess even wood would do (even though it would hold water and most certainly degrade/destroy the stone slowly).
    The underside of a ceramic tile would be a better option imo. just make sure it a porous surface imo so the glue has something to bite into.

    I have used 1 component polyurethane glue, its marketed as "waterproof wood glue" but it will glue almost anything. its the foaming type and likes having the surfaces lightly sprayed with water maybe a minute before applying the glue and pressing the surfaces together. the glue actually hardens with help of the oxygen and water vapor in the air. the second component of the glue is water :) the water in the air.

    also have a shapton pro 1k and 2k glued together with this type of glue. you will find it where ever they sell wood boards and mdf and similar. the 1/2k dual has been rock solid! not coming apart anything soon. i can assure you that.
     
  22. Mar 22, 2019 #52

    Knife2meatu

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    @inferno I've spent several hours thinning down a Henkels Twin Master (57 HRC; I believe it's X50CrMoV15) and comparing the #220 Kuro/Pro to various other stones -- and in this case the Shapton makes absolutely no sense to me Vs. an Imanishi pink brick. Speed-wise it's hard to differentiate between both; and they leave very similar scratch patterns with their mud. Except the Shapton just melts away like crazy no matter how little pressure I put down; and the Imanishi is wider and more than 3 times the thickness at 50mm. Hence, while the pink brick is roughly 60% more money, in this application I'd estimate that it would easily outlast 2 or even 3 of the Shaptons.

    I know that Cliff Stamp discusses how harder steels cause less wear in a video wherein he mentions that he likes the Pro/Kuro #220 for working bevels on some of his knives -- the implication being that he likes it for some of his extremely hard, high carbide blades. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRCK2uZfSEU) This seems to agree with Shapton's own guidance chart which only recommends the #220 for High Speed Steel (HSS), whereas it gives the nod to the #320 for Japanese Sword; Swedish Steel; and Stainless Steel/Molybdenum Steel. Based on this I did try to find the hardest, most abrasion resistant thing I wanted to sharpen -- and while I only mustered a plane iron made of what I think is a low-alloy Swedish steel, heat treated to about 62-63 HRC -- it did reduce the abrasive release of the Shapton #220 somewhat, but still not nearly enough to justify the stone in my estimation.

    I'm thinking that a combination of the Pro/Kuro #120/#320 would be much more efficient than the #220 for many, many applications. Now I'm just trying to think what hardened HSS I might have around to try and see if there's really a point at which the #220 makes sense compared to other stone choices.
     
  23. Mar 23, 2019 #53

    inferno

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    [​IMG]

    I kinda doubt any pink brick will outlast any alu-oxide stone no matter how thick. first the pink bricks are usually friable silicon carbide and it wears fast as hell. secondly the pink bricks usually dont hold any water all it just all flows through. you specific pink brick might be different but its highly unlikely.

    silicon carbide is usually used like this: you make a brick with no binder at all, just the carbide and then you soak it in oil. so it will hold its lubricant. the loosely "sintered" SiC fibers are very fragile so it will naturally expose new sharp edges (and wear fast) and this is what makes SiC good, that is it cracks down and exposes new sharp edges quickly. and if reverting to oil it will hold lube, and you need lube for all stones except non porous ones like spydercos to work. and the spydies load up in like 2 minutes (plz ask me how i know).

    If i had any pink brick i would seal it with any kind of paint on all sides except from the top side. so water stays in the stone. remember there is no binder to break down here!

    I olny have experience in industrial application with SiC and then its usually used on hardened steel because it cuts fast and then degrades to polish above its grade. But I'm not very impressed by this material at all.
    A cheap industrial abrasive that is impressive though is boron carbide! only diamond and cbn is harder. boron carbide is usually used to grind/true alu oxide and SiC. its much more economical than diamond, and also diamond turns into a gas called carbon dioxide/monoxide at about 7-800deg C. :)

    btw is you spent several h thinning down that "dish bench steel" stainless knife you have you are doing it wrong imo. 1h ok 3h not so much. push harder! move faster. be more brutal. show the knife who is in charge. I feel i can almost push with my whole body weight when using shapton stones, sure i dont do it with higher grit ones. since i want to keep using them but low grit ones like sub 1k. well, then i dont really give F to be honest. i abuse to the very max i can. and none of the 220ies have disappointed. they are faster than my diamonds so then its all good for me. I also do 100% pressure on the diamonds. i simply dont give a F. i want results. as fast as possible.

    -------------

    i have no idea what cliff recommends but i know he is very knowledgeable regading abrasives and steels. one of the best. he is also also the most hated man in the kniofe community. since he tells the truth that no one wants to hear.

    I personally buy all my stones based off forum discussions. i think i have only got 3 stones not based of internet forums discussions/recommendations. and its the diaflat 160 and the glass 500 and the glass 220. and neither of those did disappoint, and i got the 220 pro after that to see whats it was like. and all the ones i have gotten based of internet discussions performed just as people said they did! I knew exactly what i was getting. i love the internet. and many of the stones i got i based off judgment of the members here.

    i think you would be wrong with the 320 stone though. its formulated for carbon steel only pretty much. an d i have read several threads/posts on here documenting its poor performance on SS. And even before this, i knew this was a carbon only stone. A retailer for this line said so like 10 years ago. the 120 as far as i know will melt away like 5 times as fast as the 220. i dont have it myself but hey if you read the forums a certain pattern establishes.

    ----------------

    anyway use what works for you!! and thats the only way you should do things!!
    you own opinion is worth 10000 trillion engineers and smiths and makers and other knowitalls. because its only you that live your life. so i would listen to me/you first. :)


    I cant state this enough. just because i have a certain stone that works well in my enviroment doesn't necessarily means the same stone will do the same for you!
    different steel, different user, different weather, etc etc etc. I would take it more as "general probably will work good" recommendation. i always judge this if possible. and i also try to judge the skill/knowledge of the user. this says a lot. a lot! dont take recommendations like that. no questions asked. no way. you need more than that. but lets say if a user makes a good case, and he makes an impression of having knowledge of this then its good enough for me imo. i have not been disappointed yet. i guess its kinda "self regulating" this segment.


    also the "shapton recommendations" is worth jack **** imo. dont make sense at all. only thing i know is that is that the 320 and 1500 pro is carbon only and will easily glaze on high alloy and or stainless. and many people have reported this over the years so it must be true.

    also 220, shapton and hss. hss is high alloyed (very high alloyed steel, look it up on wikipedia). i dont think they can even make that differentiation even if they wanted to be honest.
    when i worked in manufacturing/machining we used alox wheel for all hardened steels. it worked just as well each and every time. we had 3 different grades and 3 different grits. blue was coarse/friable mostly for lower hardened tools, like hand tools. white was standard/medium finish, quite hard wheels. only for hss. softer steel would clog and possibly explode the wheels. then we had pink wheels these were fine grit, maybe twice as fine as the white ones. and these were for finishing stuff in hss only. or any other 55hrc plus steel kinda. other **** would clog.

    but to be honest you could grind whatever you wanted on whatever you wanted wheel. to quite good success. might not be optimal. but it would work!
    On my job now i try to get the idiots to only use the blue wheel for all their mild steel sh1t. and the white wheel for hardened steel. I think i have gotten like 10 out of like 100 people to understand this by now. baby steps, baby steps....

    I guess almost all of this is off topic crapola :) and I'm sorry for that.
     
  24. Mar 23, 2019 #54

    Knife2meatu

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    @inferno Best I can tell, many "pink bricks" are pink alumina. From an abrasive manufacturer's literature:
    As for how long it takes me to grind away 30 thou (15 per side) or so of thickness from most of a 10" Twin Master -- well, I'm sure it could be done faster if I weren't comparing several different stones for speed, wear and scratch pattern -- but considering how ridiculously fast the Shapton Pro/Kuro #220 melts away, I'm thinking it makes more sense for most users to take 5% or 10% more time if it can get done with a fraction of a Pink Brick instead of washing nearly an entire Shapton down the drain as prematurely released, largely unspent abrasive particles.

    Part of the time I've spent on this protracted thinning session has also been trying out the Shapton Pro/Kuro #320 on different steels, both stainless and carbon and I'm not seeing any of this mythical advantage on carbon or loading on stainless. I find that it too wears faster than I like, and I'm thinking I'd be hard-pressed in finding a reason to pick it over the Cerax #320. That said, the Pro/Kuro #320 does shed grit less absurdly fast than the #220, at least with the selection of tools/knives I've so far used it with; and I've not seen it load, nor do I expect to see it on account of its still relatively high friability.

    Perhaps the 1.5k will show some difference between carbon steel and stainless steel, but I doubt it. Of course I doubt this because of the Shapton chart (https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html) which we've already discussed elsewhere; which couldn't logically be interpreted as implying that the #320/#1500 Kuro/Pro Shaptons were meant preferentially for carbon steel, and much less meant specifically for carbon steel. I'm further convinced that Shapton doesn't intend the #320/#1500's at different alloys than the rest of the Pro/Kuro line-up, based on part of Shapton's own FAQ (http://www.shapton.co.jp/en/faq/) about the stones:
    It would make absolutely no sense for Shapton, who surely knows best how and why their stones work, to recommend the #1500 Pro/Kuro to replace a #1k/#5k two-stone combination if the #1.5k wasn't designed to be similarly capable as the 1k and 5k. And I'm sure you wouldn't deny the Shapton Pro/Kuro 1k's good performance on stainless -- so, if it actually was the case that the Shapton Pro/Kuro #1500 was actually designed to be used exclusively on carbon steel... Why in the world would Shapton not recommend the 2k to replace a 1k/5k progression instead of the #1500? It would make no sense at all... unless the simple truth is that these stones are similar enough in function with regards to different steel compositions, that it just makes more sense to recommend the #1500 to replace the 1k+5k because the 1.5k's grit level is simply better suited as a compromise to replace them both than is the 2k.
     
  25. Mar 23, 2019 #55

    labor of love

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    Wow. Lots to unpack there. Definitely dislike pink brick for reasons stated above. Shapton glass 220 still sounds like it’s worth a purchase. Cerax 320 is hard to beat at its grit rating. If their is competition I’d like to hear more about it.
     
  26. Mar 23, 2019 #56

    inferno

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    regarding the 320 and the 1500, believe what you want man, i'm not preaching a religion. but i have seen so many users stating the 1500 is glazing over on SS i'd say its proven fact beyond a doubt.
    also this is the source, he was/is a retailer for shapton. and one of the first for the western world. if you look at shaptons own charts its BS all over. how come only the 10k and the 3k and the 30k is good for razors?? because shapton says so? its all just bs of course. all their charts are. but what you should really listen to is what i'm telling you. :) lol sounds good right.

    you be your own judge but when you get this or that stone and it performs like crap dont come pointing fingers. you were warned.

    also why do you think they have 3 stones under 500??
    why do they have 3 stones from 1 to 2k??

    yeah? are you getting the picture now?

    https://jendeindustries.wordpress.c...oduction-to-the-shapton-pro-and-glass-series/




    expand dong!




    a bullsh1t image that means almost next to nothing. talking from own experience.
    [​IMG]
     
  27. Mar 23, 2019 #57

    inferno

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    and to be honest i dont think neither you or i have the authority to question what i just posted. since neither you or i are are retailers of these stones. nor have we been from 2004!! so we have to regard this a s fact. do you agree??
     
  28. Mar 23, 2019 #58

    Knife2meatu

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    @inferno

    Okay, I'll be right back after grinding both stainless & carbon on the #1500. Will a Victorinox pairing knife and a vintage plane iron from the 19th century suffice as stand-ins for "stainless" & "carbon" steels?
     
  29. Mar 23, 2019 #59

    inferno

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    now this was a few years since this was written and i have actually tried both the 6k and 8k gray stones (this is what cleancut in sweden sells/sold, without telling their customers i might add, when ordrering as 6 or 8k glass), now it happens to be that i also had access to both 6k and 8k white glass and 8k pro. and another 8k to really really test these stones. and i did. i actually had 3 stone holders loaded at the same time. taking less than a second to swap between the stones. to not cloud my judgement you know. keeping it scientific as far as possible.

    and to be honest. the white glass is about 50% faster working than the gray glass. and the pro is the same speed as the white but simply feels different. and also loads up different (more).
    the gray glass polishes and finishes above the 12k pro, thats the price you pay, its slightly slower but finishes way above its grit. way way above. its the same with the 6k. i'd say the 6k gray. finishes about the same as the 12k pro.

    and guess what. they all works equally good for stainless, carbon, hss, you name it. go ****ing figure! how can this be. when all their charts says otherwise.

    because its all simply bull fukking sh1t, through and through. and its there is to it.

    I have tested the products at least so i know goddamn well how they work. and i also own or have owned almost all their stones they have ever made.
     
  30. Mar 23, 2019 #60

    inferno

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    id say go with 2 different knives or 2 different plane irons, ss/carbon.
     

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