Covid: the shape of things to come

[JDA_NC]

At the college where I work, vaccines are required for students, faculty and staff. Given that, though, they plan to open "as normal", with little further precautions. We'll see if that changes if there's increased delta spread in the area.

It will be an interesting year....

Both Duke & UNC-CH are already reporting COVID-19 clusters and this is before most of the students are on campus!

 

[chefwp]

I'm not sure I agree with this <the quote below>, as even stupid or misguided people deserve compassion, but then again my wife didn't lose a hospital bed like the patient's husband to whom the quote is attributed. I think anyone with an once of empathy can understand his frustration.

"hospitals should require vaccine passports to enter. If the unvaccinated were not admitted, there would be no shortage of health care workers, just an upcoming shortage of morons." -this said by the husband of a cancer patient who lost her hospital bed to an unvaccinated covid patient.

 

[MarcelNL]

the ethics contained within that dilemma is food for a discussion that can go on for months....the problem is that reality makes it a tad more urgent. It likely ends up with a discussion around outcome measures...never a very absolute field unless you look at survival rates.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Not all unvaccinated are anti-vax. Many have multiple jobs and don't have a doctor or insurance. They're likely to believe the vaccine costs money based on their experience with the health care industry. It's not as big a priority for people who are struggling to survive more banal horrors of modern society on a daily basis.

I understand the rage, but it's being misdirected towards the easiest and most visible target. Sort of like blaming immigrants when your job is lost to outsourcing. Most unvaccinated have been failed by the medical system, not the other way around.

 

[user 16756]

Not all unvaccinated are anti-vax. Many have multiple jobs and don't have a doctor or insurance. They're likely to believe the vaccine costs money based on their experience with the health care industry. It's not as big a priority for people who are struggling to survive more banal horrors of modern society on a daily basis.

I understand the rage, but it's being misdirected towards the easiest and most visible target. Sort of like blaming immigrants when your job is lost to outsourcing. Most unvaccinated have been failed by the medical system, not the other way around.

yeah it's really hard to blame people who are basically saying "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

the president, celebrities, talking heads, etc. will not convince people because there is nothing more American than the president, talking heads and celebrities lying to you.

 

[LostHighway]

This is from a not yet peer reviewed preprint so take it as seriously or dismissively as you care to:
Covid 19 vaccine hesitancy
The PhDs are an interesting cohort that don't fit the accepted uneducated yokel narrative.

 

[ReiHamono]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33042552/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.28.21258012v1

Very sad it looks like they went back and amended that study due to outward pressures. However, we can see there’s a multitude of other studies affirming the original outcome from the American Journal of medicine study

If you would like I could keep pulling up more studies

Also we’ve seen ivermectin successfully used and most recently in India to overcome the “delta variant”. Disturbingly there’s some strange media blackout over the success of its use…

just some sentences from the studies you mentioned.

In conclusion, our trial adds extra evidence from Egypt that HCQ may not be beneficial as a treatment for COVID-19.

In conclusion, health care providers should always prioritize compassion with evolving science and safety data. In this context, we recommend a moratorium on the use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, to treat or prevent COVID-19, with the exceptions of obtaining the necessary evidence in randomized trials as well as compassionate use. If these drugs need to be prescribed for patients with COVID-19, baseline evaluations and serial monitoring are an absolute necessity.9 We urge our competent and compassionate health care providers to adhere to the first words of the Hippocratic Oath of “primum non nocere.”

Also, "Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19" is partially based on a preprint that unfortunately got retracted.

Sorry, i didnt have the time to read everything, just cherry picked some references and only read conclusions.

I am a bit confused

 

[ReiHamono]

Also, we see Ivermectin being successfully used most recently for the variants

It’s rather disturbing that influenza has some how virtually disappeared as well. The cycle threshold is most likely the reason

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2020/09/coronavirus-cases-plummet-when-pcr-tests-are-adjusted/
https://off-guardian.org/2020/12/18/who-finally-admits-pcr-tests-create-false-positives/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.28.21258012v1
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33042552/

This is the conclusion to the first study about HCQ: "In our study, adding HCQ to standard care did not add an extra benefit for the patients. Hydroxychloroquine arm was similar in all outcomes."

The second HCQ Link is not a study. It is a call for a moratorium on HCQ prescription for covid-treatment, so that HCQ can be more readily available to patients whose treatment regimes actually require it (Lupus, arthritis, etc.). Hence the request for a "moratorium".

The bit about PCR-testing not being able to distinguish between flu and covid is either a misreading--the CDC screenshot making the rounds on FB is about antibody testing to see if a person has had covid already--or misinterpretation. See here:
Fact check: Posts confuse COVID-19 viral test with COVID-19 antibody test
https://www.thejournal.ie/can-a-cold-or-flu-give-positive-test-for-covid-19-5155807-Jul2020/

 

[Bill13]

Or Florida, where Governor DeathSentence is on one hand banning mask mandates (e.g. in schools), and on the other pleading for federal help regards ventilators and so on. And any number of halfwits don't think these things are in any way related.

Florida is currently 24th in deaths per million so to be accurate the governors of the states with the top death rates should be called the death sentence governors. The two worst performing states are NJ and NY. Which is weird because one of those governors wrote a book about how well he handled the crisis. Of course hiding the number of nursing home deaths made him look better. Cuomo Aides Repeatedly Stalled Release of Nursing Home Death Toll - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

[user 16756]

Very sad it looks like they went back and amended that study due to outward pressures. However, we can see there’s a multitude of other studies affirming the original outcome from the American Journal of medicine study

literally anything to avoid even momentarily considering the possibility you're wrong

(btw youre wrong)

 

[applepieforbreakfast]

This thread is a great spot to find people to add to my ignore list.

 

[juice]

Very sad it looks like they went back and amended that study due to outward pressures.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[gregfisk]

Where do people come up with this nonsense? If any of these studies had any credibility don’t you think the various world wide health organizations would be following these guidelines? Funny how not a single country is following any of these nor are they promoting them. Hummm, I wonder why???

 

[gregfisk]

View attachment 138000

This is exactly how I’ve been feeling for the last year and a half. I almost can’t believe it... almost.

 

[ReiHamono]

Many countries are indeed using hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin as they did not want to wait for a vaccine, couldn’t afford a vaccine, and did not have enough vaccines to supply everyone

They seem to work best when used as a preventative or immediately as symptoms appear

Vaccines have been performing rather poorly as we see new strains emerging. Just like with the influenza vaccines, different versions of the vaccine must be used depending on the strain

Which brings up another point, even influenza vaccines don’t perform well

“While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to the flu vaccine.”


“Dr. Fauci Contradicts Himself
It is also interesting that one of the covid celebrities, Dr Anthony Fauci, clearly did not endorse hydroxychloroquine since early in the covid “pandemic”. Yet, he was the head of the NIH, when they published this study in 2005 regarding chloroquine’s effects on coronavirus SARS-CoV, the recent cousin of the covid-19 virus SARS-CoV2.

The other issue with the vaccine is you can still spread the virus, and sometimes have higher amounts of the virus making you more contagious, possibly letting the door to creating more new and possibly more dangerous strains

We need something stronger and performs that better and stops the level of virus from ever reaching higher levels in the first place so that we won’t have variants

It’s time to explore other avenues

Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread - PubMed

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
Another interesting graph

Where do people come up with this nonsense? If any of these studies had any credibility don’t you think the various world wide health organizations would be following these guidelines? Funny how not a single country is following any of these nor are they promoting them. Hummm, I wonder why???

 

[ian]

Vaccines have been performing rather poorly as we see new strains emerging.

So, what does performing rather poorly mean to you? That there are some breakthrough cases? Does it not make sense to you that if you are vaccinated you are many many many times less likely to end up in the hospital? Do you debate this? Or do you not care about that? I’m just trying to understand what your perspective is here.

 

[Michi]

Very sad it looks like they went back and amended that study due to outward pressures. However, we can see there’s a multitude of other studies affirming the original outcome from the American Journal of medicine study

Yeah, Prodromos and Rumschlag have been peddling their meta-study on various sites, basically wherever someone is willing to publish it. They cherry picked the data to arrive at the outcome they desired.

The overwhelming consensus in the medical community is that HCQ does absolutely nothing when it comes to Covid. Peddling low-quality studies by authors who do not even have a background in epidemiology or infectious diseases will not change that. And, fortunately, the scientific process requires consensus, and one dissenting view does not constitute consensus.

Do you really think that, if HCQ worked, doctors would ignore it? Why? Some giant global conspiracy? In the face of Covid patients overwhelming the hospital system and over 600,000 fatalities in the US alone? Give me a break… If it really worked, we'd be using it. It's as simple as that.

 

[user 16756]

Right. Given current trends, I have no doubt that Florida will climb in the rankings quite rapidly.


Last time I looked, neither of those governors tried to actively suppress mask wearing.

Has it occurred to you that infection and death rates, just maybe, might be related to population density and climate? And that this might at least in part relate to the worse outbreaks in NJ and NY? I'm guessing that this did not occur to you.

well but the guy in NY was already about to be impeached for covering up the death toll in nursing homes so I think that's a fair charge against him.

but yeah maybe we shouldn't forget Florida sent the swat team to arrest someone who refused to monkey with the numbers in Florida so my guess is that something similar probably happened there.

and more generally, let us not forget these are real people. these are our parents, our grandparents, aunts and uncles dying. trying to score gotcha points because some state you dont like has slightly worse numbers... I mean the important thing is to hold responsible everyone who needs to be held responsible.

and Michi to be clear you arent the one that comment is aimed at.

 

[M1k3]

I know I'd rather feel 40-60% less sick when I get sick, instead of feeling 100% sick.

 

[Matus]

@EricEricEric - you are posting more and more straight disinformation. If that’s your thing, please take it to some Facebook group of choice, or ask yourself a question what are you trying to achieve and why.

Edit: thanks to everyone who tries to dig out factual information available on the topic and try to disentangle their own opinions from available facts.

 

[Bill13]

well but the guy in NY was already about to be impeached for covering up the death toll in nursing homes so I think that's a fair charge against him.

but yeah maybe we shouldn't forget Florida sent the swat team to arrest someone who refused to monkey with the numbers in Florida so my guess is that something similar probably happened there.

and more generally, let us not forget these are real people. these are our parents, our grandparents, aunts and uncles dying. trying to score gotcha points because some state you dont like has slightly worse numbers... I mean the important thing is to hold responsible everyone who needs to be held responsible.

and Michi to be clear you arent the one that comment is aimed at.

A nice article to clear up the misconception people have about Fl hiding data: How Rebekah Jones peddled lies about Florida COVID-19 deaths (nypost.com)

 

[KJDedge]

I have one thought on this topic.....I think it’s really difficult to gauge exactly how this virus spreads and mutates...for example, going into the Covid pandemic, Sweden’s decision to basically do nothing, everyone was predicting a total debacle especially given their high urban density....I don’t understand how their outcome was so similar to so many other European lockdown countries ( non Nordic)....
logic would have said Sweden numbers would be absolutely and relatively worse than ANY lockdown country....
in addition they were 23 lowest out of 30 countries for excess deaths...( also arguing the case that if you aren’t dealing with collateral disease and deaths , you arent really dealing with covid)..
I think we have much to analyze and learn from this for decades to come...

 

[MarcelNL]

Agree, there are too many factors at play to be able to make any comparison other than that Covid has been diagnosed in Sweden as well as in all other countries, BUT; IMO the numbers will be quite similar regardless of all measures taken (bar vaccination) as all the measures such as lockdown or social distancing and or face masks do is slow down the spreading of the disease. it's not a question of IF you get it, but WHEN.

 

[user 16756]

A nice article to clear up the misconception people have about Fl hiding data: How Rebekah Jones peddled lies about Florida COVID-19 deaths (nypost.com)

tell you what if you can find me an equivalent story from a real source instead of a tabloid, Im happy to take a look.

but if your argument is basically "Rebekah Jones is not an angel" then idc. What is undeniable fact is that they sent a police team to here house who entered with guns drawn, when they could have just subpoenaed her.

that whole article is literally zero percent actual reporting on the substance of her claims (which as it happens Im aware of the flaws of) and mostly just saying "she's such a bad person" and hand waving about her claims with references to vague sources.

in the end, it's disappointing to me that anyone, you included, would read that and come to the conclusion that flaws in her character should cause you to simply ignore reality. "offices didnt point guns at her" I mean what the **** do you expect me to believe NYPost or the literal unedited video of the officers walking into her house with their guns drawn? come on.

 

[user 16756]

here we can see some actual reporting from Miami which paints a far different picture:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article251838913.html
wow what a shock that a notoriously political tabloid would frame things completely out of line with reality. shocked I tell you!

turns out that the reality is pretty complex and like most things, more banal than expected. Jones is not a perfect person by any stretch, but there was lots of "enhanced supervision" from the governor's office. I invite folks to read this take and the NYPost article, then click on the front page of each so you can see which each is about. or maybe youre the sort of person who likes to get their "news" interspersed with pictures of celebrities in their swimwear?

 

[gregfisk]

A nice article to clear up the misconception people have about Fl hiding data: How Rebekah Jones peddled lies about Florida COVID-19 deaths (nypost.com)

You can’t believe anything that you read in the nypost. It’s a right wing propaganda paper. If they write it you can be guaranteed that it’s a spin piece with little substance.

 

[daveb]

You can’t believe anything that you read in the nypost. It’s a right wing propaganda paper. If they write it you can be guaranteed that it’s a spin piece with little substance.

Above can be said for most if not all US based "news" outlets and their orientation. They're all more interested in making up news that fits their respective agendas than reporting actual news. It's National Enquirer for me they're only agenda is selling more rags.

 

[gregfisk]

Above can be said for most if not all US based "news" outlets and their orientation. They're all more interested in making up news that fits their respective agendas than reporting actual news. It's National Enquirer for me they're only agenda is selling more rags.

I realize that all news sources have bias depending on the audience that they are trying to cater to. But most news sources at least try to tell the truth and stick to some form of reality. I’m hoping you’re kidding about reading the National Enquirer. The sad thing about that rag is many people actually believe what’s written in it.

 

[user 16756]

Above can be said for most if not all US based "news" outlets and their orientation. They're all more interested in making up news that fits their respective agendas than reporting actual news. It's National Enquirer for me they're only agenda is selling more rags.

I mean there's bias all over the place from story selection to editorial choices to how you word things.

but I do not think the Miami Herald and the NYPost are even close in terms of how divorced from reality they are.

local city papers are still pretty good, a bit too focused on the crime scene but that's human nature.

 

[daveb]

I realize that all news sources have bias depending on the audience that they are trying to cater to. But most news sources at least try to tell the truth and stick to some form of reality. I’m hoping you’re kidding about reading the National Enquirer. The sad thing about that rag is many people actually believe what’s written in it.

So those that preach to your choir are not biased but the other side is?