Covid: the shape of things to come

[Luftmensch]

Here is how we get the message across in Australia.

Bob spencer doing a sweet guitar lick with pluggers on his mitts

 

[juice]

Much of Australia

Apart from Sydney/NSW, which is still just playing around with a mockdown...

Bob spencer doing a sweet guitar lick with pluggers on his mitts

Bob is awesome

 

[Jville]

This study shows there are serious risks and that the risks are not being conveyed to consumers properly. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...oILTRQh5dwEqqSCWCHXlU6gG7xef_WXHJ0uUmjgoHfhkk

 

[Kippington]

This study shows there are serious risks and that the risks are not being conveyed to consumers properly. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...oILTRQh5dwEqqSCWCHXlU6gG7xef_WXHJ0uUmjgoHfhkk

I'm not worried about this paper.

Back when it was written (before any official vaccine release), it was a preconceived warning for a possible danger of the vaccine trials that took place roughly a year ago, specifically about what might happen if you caught the actual disease while the trial was in effect.

Basically, something is known to have happened with other vaccines in the past (examples given are respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), dengue virus and measles)... but today enough people have taken the Covid vaccines that we can look back on this paper and say that it isn't a massive concern.

The major take-away is: While you're undergoing a vaccination for any kind of virus, try not to catch the actual disease at the same time. It will suck big time.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

That article is used a lot on the Web Timothy
Cardozo & Ronald Veazey. Very scientific sounding. Used by groups who are against vaccine.

 

[spaceconvoy]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5
Here is a more thorough paper, not just an empty three-page hypothetical. One interesting point:

"Vaccines with a high theoretical risk of inducing pathologic ADE or ERD include inactivated viral vaccines"

This theoretical risk was examined during phase 2 and 3 trials, and if it had been a problem it would have been more likely to appear in inactivated viral vaccines like Sinovac and Sinopharm. But some people will always be like

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Because of this thread & one of my siblings thinks it's more dangerous to get vacinne. I researched the anti vac scene on line.

Cardozo & Veazey are scientist they wrote article 2020. Their concerns never panned out so far. But their article is all over anti vaccine sites. You would not believe some of the claims by guys like Hotze just fact check the guy. He made money on line selling cure all's on line.

One lady forgot her name said if you take vaccine you will be dead within two years.
Then of coarse you will get sterile before you die

 

[riba]

One lady forgot her name said if you take vaccine you will be dead within two years.
Then of coarse you will get sterile before you die

You mean I can cancel my vasectomy? That'd be really nice!

 

[Michi]

A collection of peer-reviewed articles that show that masks not just work, but work well.

https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavir...-scientific-studies-that-explain-why-they-do/
These aren't articles put up on some non peer-reviewed pre-print website, but published by (among others) the American Medical Association, the National Academy of Science, the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, etc.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I watched the Olympics, in Japan everyone was
wearing masks. The USA families that had to stay home were streamed live to athletes who
had won. Groups up to 50 people none were wearing mask. Maybe all had shots but plenty
kids too.

You have to have shots to get here, to go anywhere in public must wear mask. No need
on the beach. We still have outdoor not mandatory mask rule. During lockdown outside & inside public places must wear mask.

 

[user 16756]

I gotta say I'm seeing more pressure by some of the folks in my life to force people back into the way things were.

Forcing kids back to school, bosses insisting on getting the ICs back in office chairs, etc. I feel very fortunate that not only have I saved money recently but by zeroing out my students loans during the interest rate deferral (which btw proved the rates could have and should always have been 0%) if someone decides to try and tell me to put my job above my health I can tell them to go **** themselves.

Luckily my boss has a clue, but some of the other folks I see seem to think COVID's over while cases here spike and the ICUs are literally running out of beds.

Also, unverfied since the prof didnt disclose what school theyre at, but they claimed they were told that if these unvaccinated kids the uni wants in physical seats get the prof sick the prof has to take sick leave rather than move the course online. some real psycho **** by folks who simply dont care.

you know I still feel this way about it; if you are willing to sacrifice other people (cough ahem my state's lieutenant gov) then I think you should commit harakiri on air to prove that you are willing to make the sacrifice yourself

 

[ian]

I gotta say, getting kids back in school is a huge priority for me*. Kids not in school means parents who can't work, and it means kids who are not learning to socialize and mature intellectually. At least in schools, the teachers can enforce masking and distancing, if necessary. Having kids back in schools that ignore COVID spread is not going to go well, but I think with the appropriate precautions it's absolutely a good idea to open schools.

At the college where I work, vaccines are required for students, faculty and staff. Given that, though, they plan to open "as normal", with little further precautions. We'll see if that changes if there's increased delta spread in the area.



*As a parent of a young child, I am biased. But if a significant portion of the poopulation shares my acute need, is it really bias?

 

[spaceconvoy]

But if a significant portion of the poopulation shares my acute need, is it really bias?

Yes
For a scientific citation see: racism

 

[user 16756]

I gotta say, getting kids back in school is a huge priority for me*. Kids not in school means parents who can't work, and it means kids who are not learning to socialize and mature intellectually. At least in schools, the teachers can enforce masking and distancing, if necessary. Having kids back in schools that ignore COVID spread is not going to go well, but I think with the appropriate precautions it's absolutely a good idea to open schools.

At the college where I work, vaccines are required for students, faculty and staff. Given that, though, they plan to open "as normal", with little further precautions. We'll see if that changes if there's increased delta spread in the area.



*As a parent of a young child, I am biased. But if a significant portion of the poopulation shares my acute need, is it really bias?

I mean we went through the same thing last year right.

Im dealing with freshman undergrad admissions and them wanting in-person attendance. But at least over 18 they can get vaccinated so Im grateful.

I have never personally shared the view that the point of school is childcare.

The priority IMO, is not dying. Especially with Delta putting kids in the ICU at an alarming rate where the previous variant didnt so much.

Enforcing masking and distancing by the teacher sounds about as effective as those same teachers convincing kids not to smoke pot, drink or have sex.

I remain wholly unconvinced. I think that the dominant political power in the US is a demographic group who are either vaccinated at a much rate or who dont believe in this thing anyway, and they want their lives back more than they value other people's lives. I mean I can accept if people dont calculate out the risks the same way I do but I remain unconvinced by the argument that we need to reopen schools, get back to working in the office, etc.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Schools opened here too. Some private schools have been opened longer. Lockdown
hit families hard. Lost jobs kids at home. It is not the norm for kids to learn remotely from a laptop. Some did well, others fell behind.

It's kind of like being your own boss working from home online.

5G is a game changer in all walks of life when
complete.

 

[user 16756]

Schools opened here too. Some private schools have been opened longer. Lockdown
hit families hard. Lost jobs kids at home. It is not the norm for kids to learn remotely from a laptop. Some did well, others fell behind.

It's kind of like being your own boss working from home online.

5G is a game changer in all walks of life when
complete.

this is our chance to rethink education.

maybe do away with standardized tests and the grift machine that swarms that chum, stop using property taxes, calm down about dumb stuff that isnt even being taught but is causing mass hysteria in half the population, give kids digital books for free instead so every kid has a new, up to date text, give families direct payments for food in lieu of reduced lunch.

I mean there's so much we could do, but it seems to me like the only thing people actually wanna do is just stick those little ****ers back in there.

I know it's hard having them around when you work I lived through it too I just think that's not as bad as the human Im responsible for getting COVID, again especially now that it seems to be putting kids in the hospital with symptoms.

 

[ian]

I have never personally shared the view that the point of school is childcare.

I mean, it's not the whole point, but many parents can't work if their kids are home. And some parents actually need to go to work for the country to function.

Enforcing masking and distancing by the teacher sounds about as effective as those same teachers convincing kids not to smoke pot, drink or have sex.

I think teachers are actually quite effective at not letting their students smoke pot, drink or have sex while in the classroom. Here's a study saying masks work in schools. I'm sure there are others.

I remain wholly unconvinced. I think that the dominant political power in the US is a demographic group who are either vaccinated at a much rate or who dont believe in this thing anyway, and they want their lives back more than they value other people's lives. I mean I can accept if people dont calculate out the risks the same way I do but I remain unconvinced by the argument that we need to reopen schools, get back to working in the office, etc.

It's not that the people advocating for it just want life to be normal, so they're willing to ignore the pandemic. They just think that there are just a ton of things that one should do before closing schools, e.g. universal mask mandates, closing nonessential businesses, etc...

maybe do away with standardized tests and the grift machine that swarms that chum, stop using property taxes, calm down about dumb stuff that isnt even being taught but is causing mass hysteria in half the population, give kids digital books for free instead so every kid has a new, up to date text, give families direct payments for food in lieu of reduced lunch.

I mean there's so much we could do, but it seems to me like the only thing people actually wanna do is just stick those little ****ers back in there.

Yea, I support a lot of those action items. However, if kids aren't in school then what is the point of doing any of that? I don't think this has any relevance to the question of whether kids should go back.

5G is a game changer in all walks of life when
complete.

Ah, you're a proponent of universal vaccination too, eh?

 

[ian]

Yes
For a scientific citation see: racism

Hah, touche.

 

[user 16756]

I mean, it's not the whole point, but many parents can't work if their kids are home. And some parents actually need to go to work for the country to function.

I think teachers are actually quite effective at not letting their students smoke pot, drink or have sex while in the classroom. Here's a study saying masks work in schools. I'm sure there are others.

It's not that the people advocating for it just want life to be normal, so they're willing to ignore the pandemic. They just think that there are just a ton of things that one should do before closing schools, e.g. universal mask mandates, closing nonessential businesses, etc...

Yea, I support a lot of those action items. However, if kids aren't in school then what is the point of doing any of that? I don't think this has any relevance to the question of whether kids should go back.

again I know it's tough when the kids are home. I have a solution to that problem but people don't like it (it rhymes with "direct payments")

also yes, I do think masks probably would work to reduce the spread compared to if there was no mask policy. but it was not so long ago that I was in school that Ive forgotten how little I played by the rules. and covid is so transmissible that kids taking their masks off in the hallway is a huge issue. and while yes, I think your average teacher does a good job in their own classroom, controlling kids at large, even in a school building? doesnt sound like any school I went to.

in my opinion, the facts on the ground regarding Delta make reopening schools risky at best. transmission by those with vaccines, lack of availability of vaccines for minors, low rates of vaccinations in the US, Delta showing acute symptoms in children, etc. plus child to parent transmission for those unvaccinated... I dunno it sounds like a really bad plan to me.

re your point about relevance, that's more opportunistic than being related to kids going back. our education system is beyond ****ed I am still holding out the tiniest sliver of hope that we can make some material changes to bring some sanity back to it.

also mate I used to live in Boston. I gotta tell you if I still lived there I'd feel a whole lot better about this whole thing. here in Texas the people are... I mean you just cant compare. and around where I live, people most certainly are ignoring the pandemic so they can pretend they have their life back to "normal" now.

 

[Michi]

Kids really suffer in isolation. It's not just that they are not getting their normal education, but that they can't interact with other kids, which is immensely important for their wellbeing and mental health.

The government here was very reluctant to close schools for another reason: unfortunately, many kids are much safer at school than they are at home, especially when cooped up for weeks with a violent parent

 

[Keith Sinclair]

We had some child abuse during lockdown.
Haven't heard anything in news since opened
up again parents back to work.

The school thing is on for now won't know till it plays out.

 

[juice]

They just think that there are just a ton of things that one should do before closing schools, e.g. universal mask mandates, closing nonessential businesses, etc...

Like happened down here, eh?

 

[ReiHamono]

Lockdowns and forced vaccinations were never really needed and never the solution Sweden is living proof of this fact

Add on the fact that the vaccinations have done little as covid peaked in early January before the vaccine was ever even available

95% of the individuals dying from Covid have pre-existing comorbidities. If you do not have a pre-existing comorbidity your likelihood of recovery is 99%+

We saw a multitude of vaccinated people in Massachusetts test positive, possibly being the majority and that not the only time that happened

Another curious issue is the disappearance of influenza, it looks as though the CDC has admitted that the PCR test does not differentiate between Covid and influenza

It’s also rather concerning to see the push for children to be vaccinated whom are virtually unaffected by the virus

Finally, a lot of lives could’ve been saved through the use of ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine as it’s being used in a lot of Third World countries so successfully



https://www.aier.org/article/sweden-despite-variants-no-lockdowns-no-daily-covid-deaths/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...XXl40rDkpThFReVGSgHtBdfyzL6L9gpPQWfQq92_waIcs
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33042552/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.28.21258012v1
https://www.ajtmh.org/view/journals/tpmd/103/4/article-p1635.xml
https://amjmed.org/hydroxychloroqui...rgent-need-for-a-moratorium-on-prescriptions/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

 

[riba]

just some sentences from the studies you mentioned.

In conclusion, our trial adds extra evidence from Egypt that HCQ may not be beneficial as a treatment for COVID-19.

In conclusion, health care providers should always prioritize compassion with evolving science and safety data. In this context, we recommend a moratorium on the use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, to treat or prevent COVID-19, with the exceptions of obtaining the necessary evidence in randomized trials as well as compassionate use. If these drugs need to be prescribed for patients with COVID-19, baseline evaluations and serial monitoring are an absolute necessity.9 We urge our competent and compassionate health care providers to adhere to the first words of the Hippocratic Oath of “primum non nocere.”

Also, "Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19" is partially based on a preprint that unfortunately got retracted.

Sorry, i didnt have the time to read everything, just cherry picked some references and only read conclusions.

I am a bit confused

 

[McMan]

Lockdowns and forced vaccinations were never really needed and never the solution Sweden is living proof of this fact

Add on the fact that the vaccinations have done little as covid peaked in early January before the vaccine was ever even available

95% of the individuals dying from Covid have pre-existing comorbidities. If you do not have a pre-existing comorbidity your likelihood of recovery is 99%+

We saw a multitude of vaccinated people in Massachusetts test positive, possibly being the majority and that not the only time that happened

Another curious issue is the disappearance of influenza, it looks as though the CDC has admitted that the PCR test does not differentiate between Covid and influenza

It’s also rather concerning to see the push for children to be vaccinated whom are virtually unaffected by the virus

Finally, a lot of lives could’ve been saved through the use of ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine as it’s being used in a lot of Third World countries so successfully



https://www.aier.org/article/sweden-despite-variants-no-lockdowns-no-daily-covid-deaths/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...XXl40rDkpThFReVGSgHtBdfyzL6L9gpPQWfQq92_waIcs
https://www.ajtmh.org/view/journals/tpmd/103/4/article-p1635.xml
https://amjmed.org/hydroxychloroqui...rgent-need-for-a-moratorium-on-prescriptions/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

This is the conclusion to the first study about HCQ: "In our study, adding HCQ to standard care did not add an extra benefit for the patients. Hydroxychloroquine arm was similar in all outcomes."

The second HCQ Link is not a study. It is a call for a moratorium on HCQ prescription for covid-treatment, so that HCQ can be more readily available to patients whose treatment regimes actually require it (Lupus, arthritis, etc.). Hence the request for a "moratorium".

The bit about PCR-testing not being able to distinguish between flu and covid is either a misreading--the CDC screenshot making the rounds on FB is about antibody testing to see if a person has had covid already--or misinterpretation. See here:
Fact check: Posts confuse COVID-19 viral test with COVID-19 antibody test
https://www.thejournal.ie/can-a-cold-or-flu-give-positive-test-for-covid-19-5155807-Jul2020/

 

[Michi]

Lockdowns and forced vaccinations were never really needed and never the solution Sweden is living proof of this fact

Is it now? That is most interesting. Especially considering that, in Norway, they have 26,000 cases per million population, and 560 deaths per million population. In Denmark, it is 56,000 and 440. In Sweden, it is 109,000 and 1,720. But, hey, what's three or four times as many dead people among friends?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Add on the fact that the vaccinations have done little as covid peaked in early January before the vaccine was ever even available

Yes. Without vaccines, a lot more people get sick. Does that come as a surprise? And now that many people in the US have had the vaccine, Covid has become a disease of the unvaccinated. Check the numbers for Texas, or Alabama, or Mississippi. Almost all hospitalisations are for unvaccinated people. Oh yes, the hospital systems in these states are on the brink of collapse.

It’s also rather concerning to see the push for children to be vaccinated whom are virtually unaffected by the virus

Delta affects children. Not as seriously as adults, but sometimes seriously. The Delta Variant Is Sending More Children to the Hospital. The effects of long Covid on children are largely unknown at this stage.

Children spread the virus as effectively as adults. Why on earth would we possibly want to vaccinate children then? I guess it's OK if they give it to their parents, uncles, grandparents, and anyone else they come into contact with?

 

[spaceconvoy]

Ivermectin has also been debunked recently:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
He's not some fringe-thinking crackpot though. I have some relatives who believe the exact same things. These are all pretty standard assumed facts inside a particular media bubble, presented by 'experts' and reinforced on multiple platforms to make it seem like widespread consensus. Maybe scarier than the virus itself.

 

[Michi]

Ivermectin has also been debunked recently

Naw, ivermectin works a treat, just like hydroxychloroquine. I saw that on Twitter just the other day…

 

[Michi]

We had some child abuse during lockdown.
Haven't heard anything in news since opened
up again parents back to work.

The school thing is on for now won't know till it plays out.

I expect that, thirty years from now, a very small percentage of people who are children right now will tell the story of "what it was really like during Covid." Their stories will mostly go like "My dad beat the crap out of me all the time. I kept hoping that I'd get Covid so I would die."

Kids tend to blame themselves for what goes wrong around them. That's one reason why child abusers get away with as much as they do. A more enlightened then-forty-year old might more appropriately wish "I should have kept hoping that my dad would get Covid so he would die."

 

[juice]

We saw a multitude of vaccinated people in Massachusetts test positive, possibly being the majority and that not the only time that happened

Ah, I love the precision with which you prosecute this particular argument. I mean, I'm convinced, this is beautifully constructed and brilliantly referenced.