Custom makers, deposits and the fallout from the PR (!!) fiasco

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Long time lurker, this thread is very interesting. I like the way another hobby of mine handles this, custom surfboards. Most makers require $100-200 up front (on a $600-1500 board) for materials, and the balance is paid when the board is finished. That seems reasonable and fair to me. I would never pay the balance up front, that's an excellent way to be put into 'it will be done next week, I promise!' purgatory.
 
ecchef said:
I'm guessing Gaudi got it?
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Awesome!

PeteF said:
Long time lurker, this thread is very interesting. I like the way another hobby of mine handles this, custom surfboards. Most makers require $100-200 up front (on a $600-1500 board) for materials, and the balance is paid when the board is finished. That seems reasonable and fair to me. I would never pay the balance up front, that's an excellent way to be put into 'it will be done next week, I promise!' purgatory.
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That is the smart move. It's always scary to give the full amount of a "to be determined item". Every shop I found that does bespoke denim wants the full amount before they thread a single needle. I was recently burned on a local order. Some guys look for women that can cook and clean, I need one that can cut fabric patterns. Anybody have a mail order bride company that they trust? Reviews would be helpful.
 
Chef Doom said:
Whooohoooo!

I was going crazy in solitary confinement. I doubt I will make it through parole though hahahaha.

To be honest, I had a chance to browse some other forums for some other hobbies. Fountain Pen people are strangely Pleasant Town friendly. Foodies are the worst snobs of all forums but seldom get into arguments. Audiophiles have too much discretionary income for my tastes. You have to be at least 1/4 troll to survive the fight forums for more than 48 hours.

Nice to see a fellow MF Doom fan brainsausage. So many who just don't understand. :doublethumbsup:
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Hiii!
I actually never was a fan of Hip Hop.. but MF Doom... well he convinced me that i should change my mind ;)..

seeya! ;)
 
I wish people would stop considering the garbage on the radio as hip hop. These "rappers" are pretending to be the core of hip hop and it is an illusion. Next thing you know people will start referring to Jimi Hendrix as new age country music ahead of his time.
 
Chef Doom said:
I wish people would stop considering the garbage on the radio as hip hop. These "rappers" are pretending to be the core of hip hop and it is an illusion. Next thing you know people will start referring to Jimi Hendrix as new age country music ahead of his time.
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hahhahhaah! jeah "jimi the mad banjo hendrix".. of course ;)))
this "so called hip hop" can not be even called music because its missing a melody, good samples and sense ;).. same with the original disco-funk-soul tracks.. when david usbstick getta gets his hands on em for example ;))

well sorry for the off topic rocking.. but MF Doom rocks.. its a fact ;)
 
I don't want to get the request for resolution thread off track, but just wanted to respond to the notion that only people who have given money to a maker should be commenting.
I absolutely disagree, as I think this is a much bigger issue. Yes, the central issue is people getting refunds or knives. But the larger issue of how this community responds is a huge one that I think is relevant to many. At least to anyone who is considering ordering a custom knife, which includes many of us. How the community responds matters a great deal. If I get in trouble down the road, am I on my own? Do the members, mods, vendors here support people who have put down money, and we have moved far past an expected delivery date? Is there responsive communication, and appropriate follow up action?
Indeed, the reason the issues are being responded to (and hopefully resolved) are because some people continued to press their case here, and I'm happy to support those who are owed money or knives. I'm glad things are moving in the right direction.
As a result of seeing what's happened, I would never put down 100% payment on a knife, or even 50%. I think a modest deposit ($50, 10%, something like that) to demonstrate commitment, and to cover the time the maker invests in discussing design issues is fair. Perhaps a bit more money paid to cover materials just before the knife is made would be reasonable, although that doesn't seem to be the general practice, and I'm glad. Some exceptions in the case of something extreme like a 330mm gyuto or really exotic materials would be warranted.
I know people dislike legal language and contracts, but something like that would be helpful if there are issues down the road.
I hope this forum moves toward advocating some standards that protect buyers and makers.
I'm thankful that the vast, vast majority of experiences are positive, and most people are good people who have good intentions and are trying to do right.
 
toddnmd said:
I don't want to get the request for resolution thread off track, but just wanted to respond to the notion that only people who have given money to a maker should be commenting.
I absolutely disagree, as I think this is a much bigger issue.
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Agreed. But a lot of those comments are being deleted. I had a couple deleted and I know others who did as well.

I'm actually a bit discouraged by this. There's very strong evidence IN THIS FORUM (just need to look for it), that this issue wasn't just health related, at least not all the time. But if someone points that out, the post will either be deleted or that person is getting somewhat harsh reactions...

I hope everyone gets their knives or deposits back asap!
 
alterwisser said:
Agreed. But a lot of those comments are being deleted. I had a couple deleted and I know others who did as well.

I'm actually a bit discouraged by this. There's very strong evidence IN THIS FORUM (just need to look for it), that this issue wasn't just health related, at least not all the time. But if someone points that out, the post will either be deleted or that person is getting somewhat harsh reactions...

I hope everyone gets their knives or deposits back asap!
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Exactly, I think I pointed out that this forum has some responsibility to ensure their members are not having issues with sponsored vendors as it does impact the forum yet my comments were deleted. Pretty disheartening to see this forum trying to cover up its members opinions on the issue. IMO as soon as some members made mentions of issues the forum should have contacted Pierre asking for answers. Sad it took so much work from a few posters for the issue to finally be on its way to being resolved, a few years and thousands later.
 
Well said gentlemen, I concur.

I've spent a lot on knives and vendor services since formally joining KKF last year. If I were a new member seeing this fiasco unfold with nothing being done to help these victims, and furthermore (reasonable) comments rallying support are deleted… I probably would take my business elsewhere. This apprehension should be of concern to all vendors. We are all stakeholders in this mess whether or not we have a vested pecuniary interest in the outcome.

I acknowledge that KKF is not liable for dealings with third-party vendors, but think it is good that these discussions are taking place in public as it alleviates some concerns.

alterwisser said:
…But a lot of those comments are being deleted. I had a couple deleted and I know others who did as well.
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:evilgrin:
 
As Forrest Gump so famously said, "Shite happens". Those who have been on the forums for awhile, have seen a number of makers fall onto hard times, usually caused by health issues. I think that makers in general are supportive of each other, because they are aware that an injury can sideline them for a significant amount of time.

Sometimes a maker digs such a hole and has no idea how to get out of it. The forum came together and developed a creative solution for one maker and his customers. The forum looked like it was on its way to coming up with another solution for the Pierre Rodrigue situation.

Obviously its a bad situation, when a maker is unable to meet his obligations. Which is only made worse when the maker stops talking with his customers. How do posts demanding refunds help, when its apparent the maker is in trouble? How do posts from people speculating on the nature of the problem help?

Jay
 
I didn't realize this particular maker was such a shyster until forum members started to speak up. So I think it helps to spread word around the forum that certain makers shouldn't be trusted. This guy might still be taking deposits from new victims if we didn't have whistleblowers.

jaybett said:
As Forrest Gump so famously said, "Shite happens". Those who have been on the forums for awhile, have seen a number of makers fall onto hard times, usually caused by health issues. I think that makers in general are supportive of each other, because they are aware that an injury can sideline them for a significant amount of time.

Sometimes a maker digs such a hole and has no idea how to get out of it. The forum came together and developed a creative solution for one maker and his customers. The forum looked like it was on its way to coming up with another solution for the Pierre Rodrigue situation.

Obviously its a bad situation, when a maker is unable to meet his obligations. Which is only made worse when the maker stops talking with his customers. How do posts demanding refunds help, when its apparent the maker is in trouble? How do posts from people speculating on the nature of the problem help?

Jay
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jaybett said:
Obviously its a bad situation, when a maker is unable to meet his obligations. Which is only made worse when the maker stops talking with his customers. How do posts demanding refunds help, when its apparent the maker is in trouble? How do posts from people speculating on the nature of the problem help?

Jay
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This!!!

From my understanding most of the post which were deleted were personal comments about pierre which were based on a couple of instagram posts and some massive assumptions.
 
I will never, ever take a deposit. I get nervous if people even send me materials to work with.

Stuff happens. I learned that while in school, building cars, and making knives/whatever. It's extremely easy to overshoot deadlines.
 
Deleted comments are much better than silently modified ones.
 
alterwisser said:
Is it forum etiquette to announce it when one edits his post to correct spelling mistakes?
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I meant the ones that are modified by the mods/admins without letting people know abt it.
 
Let's all go do something productive with the remainder of the day...
 
Memories.

alterwisser said:
If you have read some of the recent posts about the Pierre Rodrigue fallout, you know that I was very outspoken about the topic. It looks like I offended some people with my comments (some of them have been deleted), which I want to apologize for. I did not intend to do that, but I do have to admit that I am outspoken and emotional about topics that I feel passionate about. I am always joking that my wife (Spanish/Catalan) and myself (German) are not living up to our stereotypes, with her being level-headed, rational and analytic ... and me being an emotional, hot-headed trainwreck.

Anyhow. I wanted to follow up on the discussions with a quick point of view on customer makers and their business procedures. The way I see it, not anyone else. Please feel free to agree or disagree, and if you're a maker, I would love to get your take on it as well. This is not about Pierre Rodrigue.....
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daveb said:
Memories.

alterwisser said:
If you have read some of the recent posts about the Pierre Rodrigue fallout, you know that I was very outspoken about the topic. It looks like I offended some people with my comments (some of them have been deleted), which I want to apologize for. I did not intend to do that, but I do have to admit that I am outspoken and emotional about topics that I feel passionate about. I am always joking that my wife (Spanish/Catalan) and myself (German) are not living up to our stereotypes, with her being level-headed, rational and analytic ... and me being an emotional, hot-headed trainwreck.

Anyhow. I wanted to follow up on the discussions with a quick point of view on customer makers and their business procedures. The way I see it, not anyone else. Please feel free to agree or disagree, and if you're a maker, I would love to get your take on it as well. This is not about Pierre Rodrigue.....
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The role of a moderator is

A) to delete comments quoting/pointing to previous posts reminding people what someone said/wrote/did?

B) to make make comments quoting/pointing to previous posts reminding people what someone said/wrote/did?

C) All of the above?
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alterwisser said:
daveb said:
Memories.



The role of a moderator is

A) to delete comments quoting/pointing to previous posts reminding people what someone said/wrote/did?

B) to make make comments quoting/pointing to previous posts reminding people what someone said/wrote/did?

C) All of the above?
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You know- there's all kinds of other forums out there to hang out on. If you're not happy with how this one is being run, you don't have to take part in it.
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alterwisser said:
brainsausage said:
Do you leave your wife just because you don't agree with one thing she does or doesn't do?
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I do. Every Monday-Friday, in the morning. But I usually give myself some time to get over it, and return home in the early evening. But she makes me turn over a large amount of $$$ every 2 weeks to gain reentry into the house.
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