Espresso nerds in the house?

[Corradobrit1]

buy a vintage lever like a La Pavoni or a new Cafelat Robot and a used cafe grinder, clean it up and put some new burrs in...sets you back like 500 USD and gets you in the premier league of coffee after a bit of tinkering.

The Robot is nice (I have one) but really only for coffee geeks. I couldn't imagine using it in a family setting, especially when half dozy in the morning. Total buzz kill.
Commercial grinders are worth considering but the idea of installing and calibrating a set of new burrs is also for the geeks.
It all comes down to how much you want to peer behind the curtain.
With budget considerations I would be tempted to to go with a good standalone grinder like the Baratza and either the Breville/Sage/Silvia espresso machine. This gives you options for future upgrades as the desire and funds change.
And definitely use softened water in a hard water area.

 

[MarcelNL]

The Robot is nice (I have one) but really only for coffee geeks. I couldn't imagine using it in a family setting, especially when half dozy in the morning. Total buzz kill.
Commercial grinders are worth considering but the idea of installing and calibrating a set of new burrs is also for the geeks.
It all comes down to how much you want to peer behind the curtain.
With budget considerations I would be tempted to to go with a good standalone grinder like the Baratza and either the Breville/Sage/Silvia espresso machine. This gives you options for future upgrades as the desire and funds change.
And definitely use softened water in a hard water area.

totally correct, yet it is doable and totally depends on how involved you want to be!

for the water recipe search the 'water' subforum on Home-Barista forum for RPavlis water recipe.
I'm using distilled with some buffering KPO4 for over 2 years now and have not had to descale (impossible to build up scale).

 

[Corradobrit1]

totally correct, yet it is doable and totally depends on how involved you want to be!

for the water recipe search the 'water' subforum on Home-Barista forum for RPavlis water recipe.
I'm using distilled with some buffering KPO4 for over 2 years now and have not had to descale (impossible to build up scale).

My lever machine is plumbed in so not an option to use additives. I installed a fairly cheap coffee machine orientated water softener (ion exchange beads) and purifying (activated carbon) system from Chris coffee.
Nice thing is the replacement cartridges are pretty cheap and last about 6 months with daily use.
https://www.chriscoffee.com/products/water-softening-and-filtration-system

 

[MarcelNL]

My lever machine is plumbed in so not an option to use additives. I installed a fairly cheap coffee machine orientated water softener (ion exchange beads) and purifying (activated carbon) system from Chris coffee.
Nice thing is the replacement cartridges are pretty cheap and last about 6 months with daily use.
https://www.chriscoffee.com/products/water-softening-and-filtration-system

many ways to skin a cat...a softener works too but will replace hardness with other ions, in a dual boiler (the steam boiler) it will still amount to a residue that will have to be drained periodically.

 

[Corradobrit1]

many ways to skin a cat...a softener works too but will replace hardness with other ions, in a dual boiler (the steam boiler) it will still amount to a residue that will have to be drained periodically.

You don't want to remove all ions. Deionized water makes for poor tasting coffee.

 

[MarcelNL]

You don't want to remove all ions. Deionized water makes for poor tasting coffee.

Sure, yet softened water is not deionized by far, distilled water is and there you WANT to add some ions like a bit of Potassium Carbonate and Magnesium Sulfate (facultative) for taste yet more important...for the steam boiler which is reduction vessel all remaining ions will concentrate so you'll want to drain that bit periodically.
The steam boiler only produces vaporized (and therefore distilled water) at steam temperature

 

[nhb22]

Totally didn’t know there’s a coffee thread. Here is a picture of my coffee bar per @jedy617’s request.

 

[jedy617]

very jelly

 

[nhb22]

Wish I can put it on an island to show the back. Kinda bad @ss.

 

[jedy617]

Daaang who did the custom wood work?

 

[nhb22]

very jelly

I know a lot more about coffee than kitchen knives haha

 

[nhb22]

Daaang who did the custom wood work?

It was done by Rocket’s Milan factory. The Rocket R91 is built by the commercial side of the factory. They initially limited the walnut version to 30 units, but it seems that you can still special order via Italian distributors. It takes a couple of months to build though.

 

[jedy617]

fancy fancy. Ok what made you choose this guy over any other machine like a la marzocco, slayer, or something like a sanremo you or decent?

Think I mentioned before but eventually plan to upgrade from my breville dual boiler to an ECM or lelit. But to be honest the BDB has absolutely everything I like. Dual boiler with a heated group, and it's modified for flow control so it's pretty great. Need to upgrade my grinder first. Not as in love with my specialita as I once was.

 

[Moooza]

Wish I can put it on an island to show the back. Kinda bad @ss.

Nice Kafatek.

 

[nhb22]

fancy fancy. Ok what made you choose this guy over any other machine like a la marzocco, slayer, or something like a sanremo you or decent?

Think I mentioned before but eventually plan to upgrade from my breville dual boiler to an ECM or lelit. But to be honest the BDB has absolutely everything I like. Dual boiler with a heated group, and it's modified for flow control so it's pretty great. Need to upgrade my grinder first. Not as in love with my specialita as I once was.

That’s a very complicated question. Long story short - I think the R91 has better features in this price range and imo the best look. I actually like the boxy look. La Marzocco is nice, but you need to go to strada to get what R91 offers. GS3 is not very competitive unless you just want the lion logo. Slayer is a different beast all together. I could probably stretch my budget and get a slayer since I love the look, but you need 220v and you need to plumb the machine in. It also has a lot of reliability issues especially after Cimbali bought the company. Sanremo cafe racer would be lovely, but the You just doesn't feel that premium. It sells for much much cheaper in Europe. Decent is another totally different animal. The pump is very loud and whole machine feels like a toy. It does things no other machine can do, but I don't want an "espresso tesla." Decent's new chasis is supposed to improve in the beauty department, but it looks even worse than the original machine imo...

BDB is a great machine. You don't really need anything else to make better coffee (other than maybe a real lever machine). However, making coffee is also about the experience. It is just like we can pretty much cook anything with a $200 gyuto.

I would spend on the money on grinder first though. a better grinder with BDB will give you real improvement in cup. A more expensive espresso machine with your eureka probably won't give you much in cup difference.

 

[jedy617]

That’s a very complicated question. Long story short - I think the R91 has better features in this price range and imo the best look. I actually like the boxy look. La Marzocco is nice, but you need to go to strada to get what R91 offers. GS3 is not very competitive unless you just want the lion logo. Slayer is a different beast all together. I could probably stretch my budget and get a slayer since I love the look, but you need 220v and you need to plumb the machine in. It also has a lot of reliability issues especially after Cimbali bought the company. Sanremo cafe racer would be lovely, but the You just doesn't feel that premium. It sells for much much cheaper in Europe. Decent is another totally different animal. The pump is very loud and whole machine feels like a toy. It does things no other machine can do, but I don't want an "espresso tesla." Decent's new chasis is supposed to improve in the beauty department, but it looks even worse than the original machine imo...

BDB is a great machine. You don't really need anything else to make better coffee (other than maybe a real lever machine). However, making coffee is also about the experience. It is just like we can pretty much cook anything with a $200 gyuto.

I would spend on the money on grinder first though. a better grinder with BDB will give you real improvement in cup. A more expensive espresso machine with your eureka probably won't give you much in cup difference.

Good reasoning.

Yeah new grinder is coming first. Tbh not sure I'm into the single dose lifestyle. Eureka is coming out with atom 65 and 75 with grind by weight I'm considering, would make life simpler. Or the new specialita techno is coming which has bigger burrs and an electronic readout of burr position (god eurekas knob sucks).

And exactly, I don't think I'm getting a better espresso with a different machine but man there is just something sexy about an ECM synchronika or a lelit bianca. For my price range eventually it'll be a dual boiler e61. I actually hear sometime soon the synchronika is getting updated with an electrically heated group which would be a pretty cool upgrade. Would set it apart from most standard e61s

 

[nhb22]

Good reasoning.

Yeah new grinder is coming first. Tbh not sure I'm into the single dose lifestyle. Eureka is coming out with atom 65 and 75 with grind by weight I'm considering, would make life simpler. Or the new specialita techno is coming which has bigger burrs and an electronic readout of burr position (god eurekas knob sucks).

And exactly, I don't think I'm getting a better espresso with a different machine but man there is just something sexy about an ECM synchronika or a lelit bianca. For my price range eventually it'll be a dual boiler e61. I actually hear sometime soon the synchronika is getting updated with an electrically heated group which would be a pretty cool upgrade. Would set it apart from most standard e61s

the DBD probably has better thermal stability than synchronika and bianca. if you want a good old e61 and won't mess when flow control, a synchronika is good. I wouldn't really get a bianca. It retails for less than $2000 in most countries. Lelit was bought by a Chinese company and it can probably produce the same machines even cheaper now. In the same price range, the new La Marzocco Micra actually looks promising if you don't need flow control.

 

[jedy617]

the DBD probably has better thermal stability than synchronika and bianca. if you want a good old e61 and won't mess when flow control, a synchronika is good. I wouldn't really get a bianca. It retails for less than $2000 in most countries. Lelit was bought by a Chinese company and it can probably produce the same machines even cheaper now. In the same price range, the new La Marzocco Micra actually looks promising if you don't need flow control.

I've been told lelit was just bought by breville..and yeah it's annoying how much cheaper it is in europe And yeah the BDB will have better thermal stability compared to a synchronika now, but when the electronic heated group comes, they should be equal...was also considering just getting a refurb/open box ecm for quite a bit cheaper.

The Micra does look very interesting, but I think it's still a bit more than I would like to spend on my next machine. But nothing is set in stone right now. Might still be a year or two before I even change up the setup

 

[nhb22]

I've been told lelit was just bought by breville..and yeah it's annoying how much cheaper it is in europe And yeah the BDB will have better thermal stability compared to a synchronika now, but when the electronic heated group comes, they should be equal...was also considering just getting a refurb/open box ecm for quite a bit cheaper.

The Micra does look very interesting, but I think it's still a bit more than I would like to spend on my next machine. But nothing is set in stone right now. Might still be a year or two before I even change up the setup

You are right. Breville bought Lelit. A Chinese company bought Niche Zero. If you are still 1-2 years away from changing machine, I think there will be more Decent like machines out. Everyone is adding programability to their machines.

 

[Corradobrit1]

I have owned Rancilio Epoca, La Marzocco GS3, Cimbali M21 Junior, but the machine I've had the longest is a manual lever Londinium L1-P with Bosco group head. It needs plumbing in, but it has been the most consistent and reliable of all the units owned. I appreciate just being able to pull a great shot without all the dialing in, tweaking and geeky rigmarole some of the newer gen machines encourage. It reminds me of the cafes I used to frequent in Milan, which were reliable, satisfying and consistent. It helps if you enjoy a narrow spectrum of coffee roasts. I tend to prefer medium to darker roasts and 99% with milk, generally cappuccino, flat white or machiato.

A quality burr grinder is going to have the biggest impact on shot. I now have a Kafatek MC5 with the latest inhouse Shurikone burr set. My temprary apartment doesn't allow me to set up a big plumbed system so I've yet to test the grinder with the Londinium but it plays well with the Cafelat Robot.

 

[e30Birdy]

I been thinking about upgrading my rig but the only real machine that could replace it for me right now would probably be a vesevius with or without lever but most likely without as my GF would not be happy pulling on that thing before having her coffee. LM being bought out doesn't really jive with me plus it really offers nothing over my synchronika. I would probably even consider a Decent XL. I really do want to get away from E61 just because it ain't up to par anymore with the amount energy costs over her.

I could probably just live off of my V60 setup and be happy for myself.

 

[nhb22]

I have owned Rancilio Epoca, La Marzocco GS3, Cimbali M21 Junior, but the machine I've had the longest is a manual lever Londinium L1-P with Bosco group head. It needs plumbing in, but it has been the most consistent and reliable of all the units owned. I appreciate just being able to pull a great shot without all the dialing in, tweaking and geeky rigmarole some of the newer gen machines encourage. It reminds me of the cafes I used to frequent in Milan, which were reliable, satisfying and consistent. It helps if you enjoy a narrow spectrum of coffee roasts. I tend to prefer medium to darker roasts and 99% with milk, generally cappuccino, flat white or machiato.

A quality burr grinder is going to have the biggest impact on shot. I now have a Kafatek MC5 with the latest inhouse Shurikone burr set. My temprary apartment doesn't allow me to set up a big plumbed system so I've yet to test the grinder with the Londinium but it plays well with the Cafelat Robot.

MC5 is perfect with medium dark beans. If I don’t spend so much money on knives, I might add a real lever to my set up. I have been using my R91 to essentially mimic Londinium profile.

 

[nhb22]

I been thinking about upgrading my rig but the only real machine that could replace it for me right now would probably be a vesevius with or without lever but most likely without as my GF would not be happy pulling on that thing before having her coffee. LM being bought out doesn't really jive with me plus it really offers nothing over my synchronika. I would probably even consider a Decent XL. I really do want to get away from E61 just because it ain't up to par anymore with the amount energy costs over her.

I could probably just live off of my V60 setup and be happy for myself.

I like pour over too, but I end up doing americano a lot when I want “filter coffee” because I often times don’t have the time and energy to make myself a pour over…

 

[Corradobrit1]

MC5 is perfect with medium dark beans. If I don’t spend so much money on knives, I might add a real lever to my set up. I have been using my R91 to essentially mimic Londinium profile.

In an ideal world I'd have 2 grinders, a huge flat burr (my previous grinder was a N. Simonelli Clima Pro with 75mm flatties) and a top quality conical. It just didn't emphasize the sweeter caramel honey notes that a good conical can with darker roasts.
I really want to put the Kafatek up against a Titus.

 

[MarcelNL]

that sounds a tad extravagant for medium dark roasts
(I'm all for extravaganza)

What drop temp are you referring to as medium dark? (I always thought my pref was a medium dark roast but it turns out I'm in the light scene @ 207-ish Celsius)

 

[Rangen]

that sounds a tad extravagant for medium dark roasts
(I'm all for extravaganza)

What drop temp are you referring to as medium dark? (I always thought my pref was a medium dark roast but it turns out I'm in the light scene @ 207-ish Celsius)

Alas, bean probe temperatures are not comparable among roaster types. My first roaster registered first crack at ~356 Fahrenheit; my current one around 387F.

The only way I can think to compare drop temperatures would be to also include the number for first crack. I know I like things on the lighter side, and my "dark" espresso roast drops at 420. Second crack would kick in ~435F on this roaster, but I never do that unless I'm roasting for someone else who has requested it.

 

[MarcelNL]

Alas, bean probe temperatures are not comparable among roaster types. My first roaster registered first crack at ~356 Fahrenheit; my current one around 387F.

The only way I can think to compare drop temperatures would be to also include the number for first crack. I know I like things on the lighter side, and my "dark" espresso roast drops at 420. Second crack would kick in ~435F on this roaster, but I never do that unless I'm roasting for someone else who has requested it.

You are quite right, although FC typically is observed at around 196'C (385F), and that gives some indication for drop temp comparison. Since not even NIR 'colorimetry' is universal there are only pretty subjective ways to compare roast level...
My Huky typically registers 197 'C at FC (Using RTD's)

I stay far from second, not even go there by request.

 

[Brnak]

Slayer with Kafatek MC6 and Flat.

 

[jedy617]

We got some serious peeps up in here

 

[harken]

Been loving Black & White Roasters recently - their current Future blend, Tiki, is my all time favorite funky espresso. I also really like Malabar Au buy Josuma for milk drinks and overall old school chocolaty crema bombs.

Going to echo this %100. Plus I like that they are local to me black and white has some of the best, most interesting roasts I’ve ever tried. Big fan of the cinnamon ferments.