First carbon steel?

[DinaMoe]

Brand new member here.
I posted about this new acquisition in the "Show us your new" thread but thought I'd create a new one in hopes of getting more eyes on it.

My recent eBay buy of which I'm still waiting on delivery.
It wasn't specified as being a carbon steel model in the auction description nor on the blade itself, but, judging by the looks, this be a carbon blade no?
If it is indeed carbon steel and what looks like patina is actually patina, should I be concerned about cleaning it up or even off completely?
To my untrained eye it looks like a healthy looking patina, but, WTH do I know?

 

[DinaMoe]

Another question I just thought of.
How to tell if this is Right or Left handed?

 

[azn_knives_4l]

You can determine handedness mostly by the grind? Symmetrical is symmetrical but biased usually has 'more' grind on one side or another. A 'right-handed' grind, for example, will be ground more on the right. Grind asymmetry is also different from edge asymmetry so look at and feel the grind in addition to the edge bevels. Asymmetry is a lot more complicated than a simple ratio on angles or depth so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[DinaMoe]

Thanks for the reply.
I suppose I'll have a better idea once I have the knife in hand later this week.

 

[kot_blini]

The orange spot near the bolster in the first pic could be a little surface rust. You can get it off easily with barkeepers friend, a rust eraser, or another light abrasive. patina is fine to keep! It can help mitigate any food discoloration. I have carbon knives like this and they're not difficult to care for imo.

 

[DinaMoe]

The orange spot near the bolster in the first pic could be a little surface rust. You can get it off easily with barkeepers friend, a rust eraser, or another light abrasive. patina is fine to keep! It can help mitigate any food discoloration. I have carbon knives like this and they're not difficult to care for imo.

Yeah, I noticed that little red spot too!
I'll probably start with a light rub of baking soda and then some barkeepers if needed.

I also think I see a tip that might be chipped.
This should be a fun little project getting it all in nice shape.

 

[kujaku]

That knife is for right-handed use. The manufacturer's engraving for left-handed knives is on the opposite side.
It's definitely a carbon steel knife. Recently, they're labeled as "EU carbon steel," but a few years ago, they were labeled as "Swedish steel."

I think it's fine to use it as is, but personally, I prefer to sandpaper the entire knife and give it a new patina myself. It looks like the previous owner didn't sharpen it too much, and old carbon steel knives often have handles that rust and swell, so considering those factors, I think you've got yourself a pretty good one.

 

[DinaMoe]

That knife is for right-handed use. The manufacturer's engraving for left-handed knives is on the opposite side.
It's definitely a carbon steel knife. Recently, they're labeled as "EU carbon steel," but a few years ago, they were labeled as "Swedish steel."

I think it's fine to use it as is, but personally, I prefer to sandpaper the entire knife and give it a new patina myself. It looks like the previous owner didn't sharpen it too much, and old carbon steel knives often have handles that rust and swell, so considering those factors, I think you've got yourself a pretty good one.

Hmmm, clean off the old patina in order to form my own new personal patina you say? Fine idea!
Think I'm gonna do just that.

And thanks for the other bit of information too!

 

[kujaku]

well, since you can reset the patina anytime, I think it's good to try using it as it is, or just removing the yellow rust and experimenting with different methods. before thinning or sharpening the knife, it's important to carefully observe its original geometry. If the previous owner didn't sharpen it much and the knife retains a geometry close to its factory state, I believe it's quite beneficial as a base to understand the asymmetric sharpening characteristic.

 

[DinaMoe]

well, since you can reset the patina anytime, I think it's good to try using it as it is, or just removing the yellow rust and experimenting with different methods. before thinning or sharpening the knife, it's important to carefully observe its original geometry. If the previous owner didn't sharpen it much and the knife retains a geometry close to its factory state, I believe it's quite beneficial as a base to understand the asymmetric sharpening characteristic.

I try to never assume, but, wouldn't it be safe to assume its original factory contour was 70/30?

Now, what if it is the case where the previous owner sharpened it 50/50?
Shouldn't be too difficult to get it back to 70/30, which is what I prefer.

Also, any recommendation cleaning the handle and rivets? Baking soda and cloth?

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Sorry I haven't been able to respond directly or give reactions to anybody in this thread. My profile is super jacked rn and functionality is limited. Regarding the sharpening, @DinaMoe, it's totally up to you what to do with it in terms of the edge and asymmetry. Can't really add material back so reintroducing the asymmetry means grinding less or more at the same or different angles until you get to where you want to be. 'Steering' can become an issue at the extremes and definitely test/check as you're going through the process.

 

[kujaku]

I have no idea about cleaning. If I were to do it myself, I would probably use sandpaper and apply some kind of oil or beeswax. Since there are many people here who are more knowledgeable, it's best to follow their advice.

 

[Benuser]

I try to never assume, but, wouldn't it be safe to assume its original factory contour was 70/30?

Now, what if it is the case where the previous owner sharpened it 50/50?
Shouldn't be too difficult to get it back to 70/30, which is what I prefer.

Congratulations with the knife! That generation of Misonos were very well ground. A very pleasant, fine grained steel. About its asymmetry: quite asymmetric, indeed. The edge strongly off-centered to the left. I wouldn't implement drastic changes as they cost inevitably some width, and make the blade a lot thicker behind the edge. For the time being I would make sure the right bevel makes a continuous arc with the face. Here a fat Misono yo-deba to show what I mean. The right bevel is here on the left, of course.

 

[aporigine]

I try to never assume, but, wouldn't it be safe to assume its original factory contour was 70/30?

Now, what if it is the case where the previous owner sharpened it 50/50?
Shouldn't be too difficult to get it back to 70/30, which is what I prefer.

Also, any recommendation cleaning the handle and rivets? Baking soda and cloth?

Regarding handle&rivets, I’d use fine (1500 or 2000) wet/dry carbide paper, generously lubricated with water and dish soap.
Once the handle is dry, some sort of oil or wax.

 

[DinaMoe]

Congratulations with the knife! That generation of Misonos were very well ground. A very pleasant, fine grained steel. About its asymmetry: quite asymmetric, indeed. The edge strongly off-centered to the left. I wouldn't implement drastic changes as they cost inevitably some width, and make the blade a lot thicker behind the edge. For the time being I would make sure the right bevel makes a continuous arc with the face. Here a fat Misono yo-deba to show what I mean. The right bevel is here on the left, of course.
View attachment 333962

I follow what you're saying about following the arc on the right side but I don't know that I have those sharpening skills.
My sharpening method is pretty simple and straight forward; sharpen the backside until I feel the burr then flip over to the front side and sharpen until a burr forms there. Also making sure that I keep the 70/30 stroke ratio as best I can without getting too OCD.

Maybe I'll adjust and keep your advice in mind. Much appreciated BTW.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

I follow what you're saying about following the arc on the right side but I don't know that I have those sharpening skills.
My sharpening method is pretty simple and straight forward; sharpen the backside until I feel the burr then flip over to the front side and sharpen until a burr forms there. Also making sure that I keep the 70/30 stroke ratio as best I can without getting too OCD.

Maybe I'll adjust and keep your advise in mind. Much appreciated BTW.

This thing you're doing will, by itself, cause asymmetry with repeated sharpening. Burr forms faster on side 2 so keep this in mind.

 

[Benuser]

I follow what you're saying about following the arc on the right side but I don't know that I have those sharpening skills.
My sharpening method is pretty simple and straight forward; sharpen the backside until I feel the burr then flip over to the front side and sharpen until a burr forms there. Also making sure that I keep the 70/30 stroke ratio as best I can without getting too OCD.

Maybe I'll adjust and keep your advise in mind. Much appreciated BTW.

Thanks. I would start with the right side, at a much lower angle than you're used to, raise the spine little by little until you've reached the very edge. A sharpie and loupe a very helpful, as a burr usually appears before the very edge got reached. For the time being I would only remove the burr on the left side at some 15°, much higher than the highest angle on the right side.

 

[DinaMoe]

Thanks. I would start with the right side, at a much lower angle than you're used to, raise the spine little by little until you've reached the very edge. A sharpie and loupe a very helpful, as a burr usually appears before the very edge got reached. For the time being I would only remove the burr on the left side at some 15°, much higher than the highest angle on the right side.

I suppose one could argue which side to start on is better.
Chiharu Sugai and Vincent from Korin knives have both taught to start on the back side first, so, I'm comfortable with that method since that is where I first learned to sharpen. Though, I'll try to keep an open mind.
I do appreciate the advice though.

 

[aporigine]

I suppose one could argue which side to start on is better.
Chiharu Sugai and Vincent from Korin knives have both taught to start on the back side first, so, I'm comfortable with that method since that is where I first learned to sharpen. Though, I'll try to keep an open mind.
I do appreciate the advice though.

Don’t succumb to analysis paralysis. To butcher some Kipling:

There’s fifty-seven ways to build a tribal lay/
and every bloody one of them is right.

 

[kujaku]

I suppose one could argue which side to start on is better.
Chiharu Sugai and Vincent from Korin knives have both taught to start on the back side first, so, I'm comfortable with that method since that is where I first learned to sharpen. Though, I'll try to keep an open mind.
I do appreciate the advice though.

Didn't they say to sharpen the back side first, referring to a single bevel knife?

 

[Benuser]

Didn't they say to sharpen the back side first, referring to a single bevel knife?

Seriously?

 

[ile74]

Seriously?

Backside is quite vague term. I did understand backside in this context to edge trailing strokes with dominant hand just like you explained to start with right side (righ handed bias) and do most of the sharpening on right side. In single bevel sharpening that is kireha side, not uraoshi.

 

[kujaku]

Seriously?

I feel like my English skills might have caused an unnecessary misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that I saw them say that. I just wanted to ask if they were talking about a single bevel knife?

 

[DinaMoe]

I feel like my English skills might have caused an unnecessary misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that I saw them say that. I just wanted to ask if they were talking about a single bevel knife?

To answer your question, no.
Korin sharpeners that I mentioned teach their method for double bevel blades.
Their youtube page is full of demonstration videos for reference.

 

[Benuser]

As the Misono has probably got a symmetric edge which doesn't suit it's geometry, I would change it little by little by starting on the right — as opposed to left — side, with the logo, and only deburr the opposite side. At least, that's what I did with similar cases of neglected blades. I wouldn't be surprised if it needed some serious thinning.
Besides, some serious profile correction will be needed to remove the protruding heel section, and restore the tip. Stay much longer on the heel section until it it's in line with the middle section. As for the tip, work from the spine until the edge has been reached.

 

[DinaMoe]

On the topic of fixing a chipped tip. The consensus appears to be to "work from the spine until the edge has been reached".

Can this be achieved using a 1K stone? That is the coarsest stone that I have at the moment.

And as far as the technique goes, just flip onto the spine-side, flat onto the stone and then back-n-forth?
Does an angle have to be used as one would sharpening the blade side?

Anyone have a video link that demonstrates? I have looked to no avail.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

1k will take too long. Grab some sandpaper. I'd start at 60-80grit and probably work up through 220 or something.

 

[DinaMoe]

1k will take too long. Grab some sandpaper. I'd start at 60-80grit and probably work up through 220 or something.

Ahh. Sandpaper. That makes sense.
Thanks!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Just remember, go slow to start.

 

[aporigine]

Ahh. Sandpaper. That makes sense.
Thanks!

The quality of the sandpaper is important. Nothing reveals consistency of coat, cutting power and durability like thinning/ correcting a knife. Avoid the cheap Chinese stuff — it’s actually more expensive per unit of work done than 3M, Rhynowet etc. since it doesn’t last, and the probability of deep gouges from oversized or high grains shoots up. Those gouges take forever and a day to grind out.