First J Knife Gyuto, and one to learn on. Which one Masahiro, Sakai Kikumori or...??

[sndraco]

Thinking carbon is good for first knife, so considering Masahiro Virgin Carbon (though 90/10 gives me pause) and or Sakai Kikumori Nihonko (thought of it as a local shop Bernal cutlery carry it). Both in the $80-100 range from shops I have found.

I would totally consider used, and may even prefer used for greater bang for buck and also to ease guilt at scuffing/scratching etc

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA, San Francisco


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chef/Gyuto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Don't know

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 210

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? Since first J knife, thinking $100



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Slicing veggies, mincing veggies, chopping veggies, mincing herbs etc.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Cooking by Calphalon chef knife/set, I also did buy this knife to practice sharpening (so far slow going). https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32613177477.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7f2a4c4dYSWCrl. Also use Victorinox Fibrox Paring Knife, and Mercer Millennia bread knife.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch Grip, though probably not very good yet.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.). Mainly push cut, and slice. for herbs sometimes use walk/rock

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.). Sharpness, ease of sharpening, and edge retention in that order

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? Don't care

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? I think I can round spine/choil myself, would like good balance

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? smooth cutting or slicing, good food release, easy to sharpen

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? besides wanting decent retention don't know



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Wood, edge grain

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Not really yet

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.). bought a King combo stone, and likely will buy a strop too

Thanks Much

Shri

 

[ojisan]

Bernal Cutlery you mentioned is a great place to start with (I want them to open another shop around San Mateo or San Jose). If you don’t have much experience of sharpening, making some relationship with them would be helpful for your sharpening life.


In that price range, your choice would be a factory-made knife. If you prefer carbon steel as you described and will go to somewhere else for shopping, you'll find Misono and Suisin on online stores. Misono Swedish Carbon Steel 21cm is around $120 and Suisin High-Carbon Steel Gyutou 21cm is around $100. Misono is a well known popular maker so you don’t need to worry about the quality of their knives. Suisin is a trusted brand in Sakai (I think their western style knives are sourced from OEM makers, but that’s not a big problem). Masahiro you mentioned is another well known maker mainly for commercial kitchens. These knives are very simple and basic, and not fancy or luxuary at all, so you cannot expect the finest finishes on those knives. However they have been proven to work as expected in commercial kitchens. I assume Kikumori, Suisin and Masahiro use SK steel or something similar for those models (all of them them use Nihonkou), so Misono’s Swedish (EU) steel could be a better material. If I were you, I’d choose Misono with a bit stretch of budget. One more advantage of Misono is it’s hand forged, which is… sounds cool. By the way, Masahiro knives should have 2:8 blades?

You cannot expect super edge retention with those knives, especially Nihonkou is not considered as a long runner. I'd recommend get a a softer wood (like hinoki) cutting board if you play with a nihonkou knife with joy. You can find one at Bernal or other online stores.

Your king combo stone works fine with those carbon steel knives, actually you can get a fine edge pretty easily. In that sense, there would be a chance that you come to think edge retention is not so important.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Someone said somewhere (uh oh, I’m doing the thing...) that of the Misono, Masamoto, and Masahiro knives at that price range, Misono has the best fit and finish, Masamoto has the best grind, and Masahiro has the best steel. I’ve had the Misono and Masahiro and agree that the Misono is very good presentation and the Masahiro is good steel for the money.

 

[sndraco]

Thanks I will definitely get a softer wood cutting board. I am not wedded to carbon, just figured for price point and ease of sharpening maybe best fit. Totally open to looking for knives or WTB on BST for ones that could be better knives too? Suggestions welcome

S

 

[Benuser]

Someone said somewhere (uh oh, I’m doing the thing...) that of the Misono, Masamoto, and Masahiro knives at that price range, Misono has the best fit and finish, Masamoto has the best grind, and Masahiro has the best steel. I’ve had the Misono and Masahiro and agree that the Misono is very good presentation and the Masahiro is good steel for the money.

Couldn't agree more, as far as Misono and Masahiro are concerned. Splendid Fit&Finish vs. excellent steel.
Worth mentioning that the Misono factory edge is weak and overly convexed by buffering. To get rid of before use. Little work if you know what you're doing.
As for the Masamoto: all reports I've seen last years mention serious flaws and crazy thickness behind the edge. A lot of money for a project knife.

 

[ojisan]

Great to know Masahiro uses good steel. Usually I pass Nihonkou these days as I have one already, but I'm getting feeling like I want Masahiro...

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Someone please do correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that Nihonkou means “Japanese steel” and could refer to a wide variety of steels, including the SKs, similar to advertising “Swedish stainless” rather than indicating a single standard as Shirogami or 1095 does?

 

[JustinP]

Someone said somewhere (uh oh, I’m doing the thing...) that of the Misono, Masamoto, and Masahiro knives at that price range, Misono has the best fit and finish, Masamoto has the best grind, and Masahiro has the best steel. I’ve had the Misono and Masahiro and agree that the Misono is very good presentation and the Masahiro is good steel for the money.

The masahiro knife I have has great steel. The fit and finish is meh.

 

[Benuser]

Different steels are being used in different series...
The Masahiro Virgin Carbon comes with Takefu's V2 Special IIRC. Quite close to AS.
They are made in the same factory as Fujiwara Kanefusa's FKH. Expect the same level of Fit&Finish, which is these last years honourable at its price point.

 

[ojisan]

Most Nihonkou is low grade steel, but there are exceptions.

As a Japanese word, you are right, Nihonkou can mean any steel that is produced in Japan. However, for marketing reasons, the term Nihonkou has been usually used for steels that are not considered as high grade.

When a maker uses Shirogami (white) or Aogami (blue) steel for a knife, they simply say so. There’s nothing to hesitate to disclose they are using high grade steel. On the other hand, when they use Kigami (yellow) or SK steel, since these names are not so attractive or potentially give negative impression (cheap), they just say Nihonkou, to tell the steel is at least made in Japan (with some scent of quality). This is why most Nihonkou is considered as lower grade steel.

In contrast, the term Swedish was often used for higher grade steel, although the word itself can mean any steel produced in Sweden. There is no clear definition of “Swedish” indeed, but it’s commonly considered as high grade steel like Shirogami, because Swedish steel was known for its quality (like less P and S).

Sakai Kikumori is actually a good example. They sell gyutos made of both Nihonkou and Swedish steel, and the Swedish version is marked as “highest grade” while the Nihonkou version is just “basic”. Kiya does the same (No.3 Nihonkou vs No.6 Swedish).

These words doesn’t refer any specific composition or grade of course, so there are many exceptions. Shirogami and Aogami are trademarks of Hitachi, so even if a steel produced by another maker is quire pure, the maker cannot sell it as “Shirogami”. In this case, maybe they just use Nihonkou or their own trademark. For an instance, Kiya sells hand forged Umeji Nihonkou knives, which are their flagship carbon steel gyutos and more expensive than their Swedish gyutos (No.6). So they use “Nihonkou” on their high-end knives, probably because its actual material is Takefu’s V1. V1 would be considered as a high grade steel, but most people don’t know this name. So “Umeji-Nihonkou” sounds better than “Umeji-V1“ in this case.

As for Masahiro, I realized that they are very honest and not hiding the materials of their Japanese knives (SK5, Kigami, Shirogami and Aogami), but they just say “original pure nihonkou” for Gyutos. This might mean that Masahiro has their own (good) composition of steel for their Gyutos, and just call it Nihoukou like Kiya.

Edit: If it's Takefu V2, that makes sense people think Masahiro uses good steel.