First knife Germany

[tarnschaf]

LOCATION
-Germany


KNIFE TYPE
-chef’s knife, gyuto, santoku

Are you right or left handed?
-right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
-either

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
-180-240

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
-No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
-unsure if i should start low and see what i like or jump in ~80-200€

KNIFE USE
-home environment , depending on value i might take it to work as i cook there ( working as social worker in a youth home )


What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
-making things smaller...mostly vegetables cabbage onions


What knife, if any, are you replacing?
-Zwilling Santoku 4 Star

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (
-pinsh grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
-push cut, pull cut


What improvements do you want from your current knife?
-Better aesthetics, Edge Retention


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
-Wood and Rubber

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
-Yes
(zische missarke ultra (Fepa 3000 )and zische combo stone (Fepa 220/400) willing and interested to expand

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives?
-Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
-Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
-I like the aesthetics of Simon Herde, elegant and not flashy
-would buy second hand
-german forum suggests culilux as a starter knife
-i am in no hurry happily used my knife for 20 years

 

[Jovidah]

Personally I would lean to something at least semi-stainless if this is your 'one good knife' purchase, just to be a bit more flexible.
Simon Herde makes great knives but it's not within your budget. When he did a production run last year I paid around 350 euros for mine. For what it's worth, I don't see me selling it anytime soon (or ever). Not even when I can get a slightly longer 250mm model because my girlfriend will claim my 230...

 

[tarnschaf]

Hey i plan to get a Simon Herde its just so damn sexy... or another knife as aesthetic.
I am just unsure if i should start with this and then be disappointed in the next ones i get, also i probably have to wait quite some time for another small batch drop.

 

[Benuser]

You may consider a stainless cladded with a carbon core. Easy maintenance. This one offers a spectacular edge retention, and a good food release thanks to the careful grinding, even when being really thin. I've the 210 in mind.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/aogami-super-knife-deep-impact
It comes regularly in small batches. Ask Mr Iwahara koki at kencrest.us about availability.

 

[tarnschaf]

Thanks for your suggestion, cladded stainless carbon core seems like a good way to go.
I also found this https://www.scharfesjapan.de/kochme...sune-meisho/kanetsune-meisho-kochmesser-180mm any information on them ?
Edit: Also i saw someone talking about Misono sweden steel as a good working knife.
2nd Edit: This is suggested at a german forum https://www.culilux.com/product-page/kobe-messerforum-edition-kochmesser-20-cm

 

[Benuser]

Thanks for your suggestion, cladded stainless carbon core seems like a good way to go.
I also found this https://www.scharfesjapan.de/kochme...sune-meisho/kanetsune-meisho-kochmesser-180mm any information on them ?
Edit: Also i saw someone talking about Misono sweden steel as a good working knife.
2nd Edit: This is suggested at a german forum https://www.culilux.com/product-page/kobe-messerforum-edition-kochmesser-20-cm

The Misono Swedish Carbons are excellent knives. Recent ones though come far too fat behind the edge out of the factory, and require serious thinning.
About the Kanetsune: VG-10 is a great steel if it got the right Heat Treatment, which rarely is the case.

 

[Jovidah]

Hey i plan to get a Simon Herde its just so damn sexy... or another knife as aesthetic.
I am just unsure if i should start with this and then be disappointed in the next ones i get, also i probably have to wait quite some time for another small batch drop.

To be fair, aesthethics are not important but I think it's more important to find your preferences regarding knives and to get something that suits them.
Only problem is that when your sample size up until now is 1 it's very hard to say anything about your preferences.

So for example I like my Herde because it has a really nice distal taper that starts relatively early contrary to some other knives... But others might dislike it for the very same reasons.

For what it's worth though I think Simon's work is great there's plenty of other stuff 'in between' that should also be a significant step up from your Zwilling.

 

[tarnschaf]

Well only one way to find out $$

VG-10 is a great steel if it got the right Heat Treatment, which rarely is the case.

Are their any smiths which succed in my price range ?
Edit: Is Mr part of the adress ?

Ask Mr Iwahara koki at kencrest.us about availability.

 

[tarnschaf]

Recent ones though come far too fat behind the edge out of the factory, and require serious thinning.

I found a shop selling misono in europe.
https://www.hamono.nl/en/misono-professional-carbon-gyuto-210-mm-112.html
How would it compare to the one you suggested? https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/aogami-super-knife-deep-impact
My thought process is i could send it to Schanz for thinning for the taxed i would save not importing.

 

[Benuser]

I found a shop selling misono in europe.
https://www.hamono.nl/en/misono-professional-carbon-gyuto-210-mm-112.html
How would it compare to the one you suggested? https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/aogami-super-knife-deep-impact
My thought process is i could send it to Schanz for thinning for the taxed i would save not importing.

You still pay your German VAT, and the Dutch middleman. I get stuff from JCK cheaper, much cheaper, than buying here.
I find the Misono 210 a bit narrow. Got recently the 195 which is better balanced but it required a lot of thinning. The same with a recent 240. Very different from the one I got some thirty years ago who was nail flexing out of the box.
The Deep Impact is a totally different kind of knife. The Misono has a very fine, slightly soft kind of steel. I do like it a lot but edge retention is not its first quality. I don't care, as reviving the edge is so simple.
Aogami Super here is not just crazy hard, but has not the slightest brittleness. Finely grained, but with a bite. I've used this one under very harsh circumstances — welfare kitchen, old, bend poly boards. At the end the edge still was still perfectly smooth. Keep it thin behind the edge, and let the edge be a bit conservative. I like to have at least the right bevel to be in line and to flush with the blade — slightly convexed. It reduces friction, allows a more stable edge with the same performance, and makes deburring much easier.

 

[tarnschaf]

Hm maybe i need to overthink the statement of edge retention. I dont mind reviving the edge. But as i read your text about how you shape your edge i see that i have a long way to go in terms of sharpening and knowledge.
Maybe i should change the things i am looking to improve on, to performance and sharpening possibilities. As Jovidah already stated aesthetics are not the first point. Would these preferences change your recommendations ?
Thanks again for your insight and time.

 

[Benuser]

Problem is, there aren't much knives today that come ready for use out of the box. I guess you won't feel comfortable with having to heavily thin a brand new knife.
The only ones I know that only need a bit of refinement but have a decent edge, are the Robert Herders. Prices for the 1922 series have risen a lot. You may consider the Lignum 3: excellent steel, easy sharpening. Coming out of the factory with an edge you may use instantly, or refine a bit, on a fine stone. I believe they are still relatively affordable.
https://www.knivesandtools.de/de/pt/-robert-herder-lignum-3-hrc-60-santoku-messer.htm
For about the same money you may get a Carbonext semi-stainless by JCK. They have an ES, 'extra sharp' option. That edge has the advantage of showing how to maintain a strongly asymmetric edge. Just follow the existing edge, after having painted it with a red Edding permanent marker, or sharpie, as our American friends say. https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...ch-special-order-made-kiritsuke-blade-version

 

[JayS20]

Curious what makes you hesitant towards the Culilux?
It's better than the Kanetsune although didn't have the VG10 yet.
Misonos are heavily asymmetric grinds with way too much convexity at the edge, definitely needs thinning. After that they are solid performers.
Up to 200€ you can get quite some good knives.
Kyohei Shindo but sometimes they are bent or even warped. Masutani for a solid performer but still tough knife. Makoto Kurosaki if you want laserish but still kinda robust.
JNS Kaerus via Meesterselijpers could also be an option though I thin it also benefits from light thinning.
Herder are good knives but stick worse than Culilux. JCK offerings are good and usually get slightly underdeclared, so around 30€ for fees.

 

[tarnschaf]

Tbh i dont mind thinning a new blade, i bought a cleaver from ali to improve on my sharpening skills and do try to thin it atm. Only way to learn is to do it and then use the knife. Also i think if i screw up i can let someone like Schanz professionally thin it again. I read its like 20-30€ with shipping.

 

[tarnschaf]

Hey JayS20 thanks for joining in. I am curious about the options i have and what ppl recommend. I have no hesitation towards the culilux just scouting and waiting what ppl are offering as information. I have read good things about the knife in a german forum, just dont want to jump the gun.

 

[blokey]

Hey i plan to get a Simon Herde its just so damn sexy... or another knife as aesthetic.
I am just unsure if i should start with this and then be disappointed in the next ones i get, also i probably have to wait quite some time for another small batch drop.

You can get a Hopwood good, his stuff is great too, another young maker in your country

 

[Benuser]

Herder are good knives but stick worse than Culilux. JCK offerings are good and usually get slightly underdeclared, so around 30€ for fees.

Herder has very different series. Your sweeping judgment probably applies to the K series. Certainly not to the 1922 or the Lignum 3, unless you've actually experienced so. I certainly did not.
With my last orders with JCK I paid €3.15 VAT – the Netherlands tariff is 21% – and € 5 handling costs to FedEx.

 

[blokey]

Herder has very different series. Your sweeping judgment probably applies to the K series. Certainly not to the 1922 or the Lignum 3, unless you've actually experienced so. I certainly did not.
With my last orders with JCK I paid €3.15 VAT – the Netherlands tariff is 21% – and € 5 handling costs to FedEx.

I’m really interested in the Lignum, kind want to buy but I already have a K series, are they really different?

 

[Benuser]

I’m really interested in the Lignum, kind want to buy but I already have a K series, are they really different?

Handle is quite substantial, blade stiff thanks to the relatively thick spine. The first Herder in 1.2519 at 60Rc, long before the introduction of the K-series.

 

[tarnschaf]

You can get a Hopwood good, his stuff is great too, another young maker in your country

Hey blokey thanks for the tip, how much are his knives ?

For about the same money you may get a Carbonext semi-stainless by JCK

What would be the reason, besides the 70/30 edge, to go for Carbonext instead of the suggested https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/aogami-super-knife-deep-impact?


I also got offered https://www.toshoknifearts.com/products/gaa-002-53-fa195 from a user, any thoughts?

Thanks for your help!

Edit: Also https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...0mm-gyuto-in-aogami-super.66189/#post-1014306 any thoughts ?

 

[JayS20]

Herder has very different series. Your sweeping judgment probably applies to the K series. Certainly not to the 1922 or the Lignum 3, unless you've actually experienced so. I certainly did not.

You are right that the 1922 which is a pretty good knife but also no longer too cheap, and quality control could be better with the handles, is less bad in that regard bu for me it still stands. Would have to lie saying I totally remember how the Lignum 3 cuts and sticks. Definitely held one in hands and cut with it but can't really remember.

Hopwood Goods will be 300€ up, more around 350€ depending what you want. You could also try buying a Simon Herde second hand. Jonathan started his practice years as a doctor. So he is really busy with work and doesn't have as much time for knives any more. Waiting quite some time for my custom

 

[Benuser]

What would be the reason, besides the 70/30 edge, to go for Carbonext instead of the suggested https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/aogami-super-knife-deep-impact?

The Deep Impact has a similar, strongly asymmetric geometry as the Carbonext, Misono and most other Japanese yo-knives, but it comes with a 50/50 edge, which is far from corresponding to the blade's geometry. It's done for marketing reasons. That makes that some work is required to give it an optimal edge: off-centered to the left, right bevel in line with the face, left bevel at a much higher angle. If you're not familiar with these kind of knives it's no simple job. Staying with the factory edge's geometry is likely to cause serious steering and/or wedging issues after a few sharpenings.
The Carbonext comes when the ES option is chosen with a decent edge, adapted to the blade's asymmetric geometry. For your sharpening, you may simply follow the original edge.

 

[tarnschaf]

Thanks for the replys. Time to read ... https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/a-basic-explanation-of-asymmetry.33951/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/asymmetry-–-the-real-deal.5656/
Thanks for all the input!

 

[Benuser]

You're most welcome!

 

[Messer Mojo]

I'll give my input:

-german forum suggests culilux as a starter knife

Culilux are good knives, but I recently reviewed them and they are not optimal for pinch grip.
In fact, I didn't like the balance (and weight distribution) at all, compared to my much lighter Japanese knives. Cutting performance is good though.
It's definitely a good knife for that price, but it depends on your preferences, whether you like the knife or not.

@Benuser

You still pay your German VAT, and the Dutch middleman. I get stuff from JCK cheaper, much cheaper, than buying here.

It's not always cheaper to buy in Japan. The Misono costs ~110€ + ~15€ shipping and you'll most likely have to pay 19% VAT and 8,5% customs.
Paying for a 210mm Swedish Gyuto is pretty much standard, whether you buy at JCK, Hamono nl or for example in my shop.

Herder Windmühlenmesser are good, but they are somewhat overpriced, like almost all German knives (due to Germanys high energy prices). For that money I'd rather get a Japanese knife.

As for recommendations:
I'm obv. biased, so take my recommendation with a grain of salt:

• Tsunehisa knives are pretty good starter knives in various price ranges
• Obv, Takamura and their VG10 lines
• Although a little bit expensive in Germany, Tojiro knives are solid beginner knives
• Misono obv.
• Shiro Kamo
• Makoto Kurosaki

 

[Jovidah]

I have never ever paid more than about 10 bucks in customs whenever buying from JCK.
Even if you got hit by customs you'd still end up cheaper than a shop like hamono.nl; he's usually on the higher end of the pricerange.

 

[concernedparent]

• Tsunehisa knives are pretty good starter knives in various price ranges
• Obv, Takamura and their VG10 lines
• ...
• Shiro Kamo

These would be my recommendations for entry level Japanese knives. I haven't handled Tsunehisa line knives in person but they seem to get decent reviews depending on the line. Shiro Kamo (wa handle) and Takamura (western handle) are insane values for their performance. You'll get laser/lasery performance out of them and you'll still have a back-up knife for the tough stuff.

I still use my Shiro Kamo quite often despite having much more expensive knives; it's like 90% of the performance at 40% of the price versus my Yoshikane for example. Takamura was my first Japanese knife and I happily used it for a long time before I even thought to buy anything else.

 

[Messer Mojo]

Not

I have never ever paid more than about 10 bucks in customs whenever buying from JCK.
Even if you got hit by customs you'd still end up cheaper than a shop like hamono.nl; he's usually on the higher end of the pricerange.

Customs fees are calculated in % and it varies, depending on the purchased goods. For some goods it's as low as 3%, for other things like knives it's 8,5%. (at least here in Germany)

Hamono.nl prices are pretty much normal from what I saw, but they aren't as cheap as some of the meesterslijpers prices.

@concernedparent
I pretty much agree, I just mentioned the other knives to give more options and because they were mentioned here. But I do believe Tojiros are still a good beginner friendly option, but obv. not on the same level as Takamuras.

 

[JayS20]

Customs fees are calculated in % and it varies, depending on the purchased goods. For some goods it's as low as 3%, for other things like knives it's 8,5%. (at least here in Germany)

8,5% custom duties only start over 150€, so it will only be 19%+postage fees.. But in general there should be no custom duties since Germany has a treaty (Freihandelsabkommen) wit Japan. But Japanese have to declare it correctly which often times doesn't happen. So you pay Vat 19% and postage fees which are around 7€. Also like I said most Japanese retailers declare their stuff undervalued so it will often times be 20-30€ in fees.

 

[tarnschaf]

Hey thanks for the input.
So prices of the suggested knifes are very close. As far as i know customs only apply above 150€ value.
Anyway the prices are close so what is the recommendation on grind and heat treat quality.

1. https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...ch-special-order-made-kiritsuke-blade-version
2. https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/aogami-super-knife-deep-impact?variant=29537643011
3. https://www.japan-messer-shop.de/Me...i-Tsuchime-Gyuto--signiert--21-cm-Klinge.html
Shiro Kamo has so many knifes ..
4. https://www.meesterslijpers.nl/en/shiro-kamo-aogami-super-walnut-gyuto-21-cm
Tsunehisa is a combinat so i got no clue who is a good smith

Cheers
Edit: I forgot Misono 5. https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/misono-sweden-steel-series-gyuto-180mm-to-360mm-8-sizes

Edit2: i am interested in a asymmetrical grind