first proper chefs knife

[piejustice]

Hi all

Starting to love to cook! Using parents tools at the moment but will be moving out soon. Would like something nice to use but won't be heartbroken to see a flat mate abuse.

Australian pricing also seems weird compared to US...


LOCATION
What country are you in?
Australia


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chefs knife
Are you right or left handed?
Right
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or
8-10"
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Around 100AUD


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home
What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Everything apart from breaking bones.
What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip
What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push cut/slice, rock
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Don't care
Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Balanced, comfortable to hold.
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Use out of box would be nice - would delay purchase of stones til later. Push cut ideal - can learn rock chopping otherwise. Current knife sticks a lot to vegetables and meat a lot as well.
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Around 6 months.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes


Cheers,
Piejustice

 

[Fong]

if your roommates are going to use it as well, the Tojiro dp3 may be a good entry level knife. There's occasional 20% off at peters of kensington as well so that brings the 210mm to roughly $70. However, the f&f may not be the best.

 

[Chef_]

I have a hard time recommending knives to people in your predicament, where they want a low budget knife because theyre sharing common areas with people who are going to abuse the knife. And for $80, youre only options are Tojiro and Fujiwara, lets just get that out of the way. So theres your answer. But the thing is, a dull, broken tojiro is no better than a dull faberware.

So if you were to store your knife in your room where others cant get to it, and up your budget some more, then I can start recommending some knives.

 

[Espresso]

Don't let your roommates use anything that you value. Anything. Knives, cutting boards, cookware, coffee kettles, vaccuums, socks. Nothing. They can and will destroy them.

In your situation I would get something cheap and unbreakable like a Victorinox. Get your flatmate to split it with you, and see how they take care of it. A couple months down the line, make the decision if you can trust them with a nicer knife or not.

When I moved in with my roommate, we were so close to ordering some JKI knives. I decided to hold off and buy some cheap Mercer knives with wa handles to see how they would be cared for.

Dishwasher. Soaked in the sink. Food left on them. Rusty (and they were stainless). Used to open cans.

Do. Not. Do. It.

 

[piejustice]

Thanks for the replies - looks like I'll be keeping these in my room then!

I've heard a bit about the Tojiro DP, not so much the Fujiwara FKM. If I up my budget, would I get a lot more knife for my money? Am just being conscious of the hones and stones I'll need to buy as well.

 

[Espresso]

Thanks for the replies - looks like I'll be keeping these in my room then!

I've heard a bit about the Tojiro DP, not so much the Fujiwara FKM. If I up my budget, would I get a lot more knife for my money? Am just being conscious of the hones and stones I'll need to buy as well.

I've never used either knives but the general consensus that I've gathered is that the Tojiro will get slightly sharper and hold it longer than the Fujiwara, at the expense of being a bit microchippy OOTB. The handle is clunkier on the Tojiro, but if you have big-ish hands then no big deal. The Fujiwara has slightly better fit and finish. As far as stones, all you would need at first would be a good medium grit (1K) stone. You won't need a hone, so no worries about that.

If you up your budget to around $100 you could get some great knives that anyone would be happy to have around!

Misono: https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-steel-series-gyuto-knife?variant=29319400067
JCK Gekko: https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...ck-natures-gekko-gyuto-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizes
Gesshin Stainless: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ecials/products/gesshin-stainless-210mm-gyuto

The Gesshin Stainless is awesome because Jon at JKI will sharpen it up for you if you ask so you have a good base to compare your sharpening to. It's tough, chip resistant, well made, comes with a saya and a wa handle. Great deal at the price.

 

[Nemo]

For 100 AUD (currently around 80 USD), be aware that international shipping be a pretty large part of the budget so maybe not economic. The cheapest is probably JCK at a flat 7 USD.

In this price bracket, the Fuji FKM and Tojiro DP are the most commonly recommended. The Fuji FKH (carbon) is probably also worth looking at.

I have a Fuji FKM 270 gyuto and 120 petty (which I use as a parer). They are a monosteel, probably AUS8 steel or similar at a fairly soft 58 (odd) HRC. The F&F of the (large) handle is pretty good. The spine and choil need to be eased. It's a tall knife with an edge that gently curves to a medium height tip. It has a bit of sheeps-foot at the tip. It's a thinnish middleweight but definitely not a laser. They arrived not very sharp but are not very difficult to sharpen. The gyuto wedged a little until I eased the shoulders. It performs really well after a good thinning session. The blade is somewhat convexed, more on the right side and food release is not too bad for a cheap knife. The edge is assymetric (listed as 70/30) and it comes with different bevel angles on the right and left side. Edge retention is good compared to Western stainless but not compared to other Japanese knives. On the upside, small dings in the edge (which you can see by seeing reflected glints of light on the edge) often straighten out with a stroke or two on a strop, which you often can't do with the harder steels. And you'll get more practice sharpening 😄

I've used mine as project knives for learning a number of skills (sharpening, thinning, polishing) because they are cheap (and I guess reasonably well made but unrefined) and the knives have improved with each project.

I have not handled the Tojiro DP but have used (briefly) and sharpened the Tojiro HSPS. This knife had poorer F&F. The handle didn't match the bolster quite as well (not to a worrying extent, though) and the spine and choil were fairly sharp and uncomfotable. Easy to fix with some masking tape and wet & dry sandpaper, though. I believe that the DP has a symmetric edge and is of course a clad (san mai) knife with a harder (and potentially chippier) core steel. The HSPS version has a bigger belly (curve) than the Fuji and a higher tip. Not sure if this apples to the DP.

The Fuji has many things to recommend it. My main concern would be a novice sharpener learning to sharpen a moderately assymetric edge.

Edit: I should say that while the FKM isn't that difficult to sharpen, it is not as easy to get as refined an edge (and probably a bit more difficult to deburr) as carbon or even PM stainless steels. I'm not sure how the VG10 in the DP compares although mass produced VG10 seems to have a reputation for being a bit of a pain to deburr (FWIW, I've personally never sharpened VG10)

 

[piejustice]

The Misono is beautiful with the dragon engraving! It's too bad it doesn't come on the 210mm - the 240mm will come to over $200 AUD delivered - I don't think I'm willing to spend that much yet on my first foray into j-knives. The same can be said about the Gesshin.

Noted about the asymmetric bevel sharpening - is it that much harder to learn to sharpen?

I've deduced so far that (and yet to decide):
Misono 210mm - ~$145 AUD shipped from JCK
Tojiro DP 210mm - ~$97 AUD shipped from Hocho Knives
Fujiwara FKM 210mm ~$110 AUD shipped locally

 

[Nemo]

Noted about the asymmetric bevel sharpening - is it that much harder to learn to sharpen?

Initially if you just follow the geometry of the knife (including the bevel angles) it should be fine. The sharpie trick is useful here. As you gain confidence and understanding of assymetry, you can try knocking off the shoulders (thinning the first 2-3mm behind the edge At atound 10-12 degrees), modifying the bevels, and eventually a more robust thinning (an then have a go at refinishing with W&D sandpaper).

 

[panda]

get a used global santoku
roommate proof

 

[piejustice]

Ready to pull the trigger on the Misono Moly 210mm Gyuto for only $6 USD more than the Fujiwara: https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/misono-molybdenum-steel-series

Is there a reason why it may not be recommended previously (before I buy)? I’ve read that the F&F will be nicer than the Fujiwara.

In terms of honing, Espresso mentioned this was not necessary - is there no need to hone/realign the edge? I was under the impression that a ceramic rod would be ideal - e.g. http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10167004/ or the commonly recommended idahone

 

[Espresso]

Ready to pull the trigger on the Misono Moly 210mm Gyuto for only $6 USD more than the Fujiwara: https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/misono-molybdenum-steel-series

Is there a reason why it may not be recommended previously (before I buy)? I’ve read that the F&F will be nicer than the Fujiwara.

In terms of honing, Espresso mentioned this was not necessary - is there no need to hone/realign the edge? I was under the impression that a ceramic rod would be ideal - e.g. http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10167004/ or the commonly recommended idahone

A ceramic rod is definitely better than a stainless one, but in my opinion you can accomplish the same thing, more effectively and safely (for your blade) with stones. A few stropping strokes before use will do the trick much better. Plus, the more things you do with your stones, the more comfortable you will feel with it, so when it's time for a full sharpening you will have spent more time feeling the stone.

 

[Nemo]

To explain why a honing rod is great for soft Western steel but not so good for harder knives including most Japanese style knives, you need to think of how the edge fails during use. On Soft Western knives at 52-54 HRC, the mode of edge failure (loss of sharpness) is mainly that the edge rolls/folds over. A honing rod is used to realign the edge. Eventually the metal on the edge that has been repeatedly rolled and realigned will become weak and the edge will micro-chip. Then honing won't work and you'll need to resharpen. My wife refuses to use Japanese knives and likes her old Mundials. The edge is usually has sections that have been rolled (often showing up as glints of light on the edge) after she has used it. Running it (gently) over a fine ceramic steel realigns it and it's probaly reasonable to do this after (or ideally before and if required, during) each prep session with these knives.

Harder steels are resistant to rolling. So the edge holds up longer. The harder the steel, the less prone the edge is to rolling and the more prone it is to microchipping. Running these knives along a honing rod doesn't help much because you are trying to fix a problem that isn't the main cause of loss of sharpness in these knives. In addition, you risk microchipping the good parts of the edge. Assymetiric edges are also said to be more prone to chipping on a honing rod.

Softer Japanese steels like AUS8, often at 58-odd HRC probably do roll the edges a bit (but much less than soft Western steels). But they also microchip much more easily than soft Western steels . A much better option for realigning the edge on these knives is stropping, either on a strop or a fine stone.

Yes, you can take Japanese knives to a honing rod in an emergency (say, working on the line), but it probably won't work as well as for a Western knife and will probably damage other parts of the edge. As a home cook I never do it and certainly not as part of routine maintennence.

I suggest that for your Japanese knives, use them until they don't cut as well (depending on the amount of use, the knife and how well you sharpen, for a home cook, this might take a week or a month or more), then run it over a strop (or strop on a fine stone) to refresh the edge. Stropping will gradually become less effective as the metal at the edge fatigues. When stropping stops giving acceptable results, refresh the edge by sharpening on a fine stone. Repeat. Eventually the fine stone will stop fixing the edge and you'll need to move to a medium stone.

 

[Espresso]

To explain why a honing rod is great for soft Western steel but not so good for harder knives including most Japanese style knives, you need to think of how the edge fails during use. On Soft Western knives at 52-54 HRC, the mode of edge failure (loss of sharpness) is mainly that the edge rolls/folds over. A honing rod is used to realign the edge. Eventually the metal on the edge that has been repeatedly rolled and realigned will become weak and the edge will micro-chip. Then honing won't work and you'll need to resharpen. My wife refuses to use Japanese knives and likes her old Mundials. The edge is usually has sections that have been rolled (often showing up as glints of light on the edge) after she has used it. Running it (gently) over a fine ceramic steel realigns it and it's probaly reasonable to do this after (or ideally before and if required, during) each prep session with these knives.

Harder steels are resistant to rolling. So the edge holds up longer. The harder the steel, the less prone the edge is to rolling and the more prone it is to microchipping. Running these knives along a honing rod doesn't help much because you are trying to fix a problem that isn't the main cause of loss of sharpness in these knives. In addition, you risk microchipping the good parts of the edge. Assymetiric edges are also said to be more prone to chipping on a honing rod.

Softer Japanese steels like AUS8, often at 58-odd HRC probably do roll the edges a bit (but much less than soft Western steels). But they also microchip much more easily than soft Western steels . A much better option for realigning the edge on these knives is stropping, either on a strop or a fine stone.

Yes, you can take Japanese knives to a honing rod in an emergency (say, working on the line), but it probably won't work as well as for a Western knife and will probably damage other parts of the edge. As a home cook I never do it and certainly not as part of routine maintennence.

I suggest that for your Japanese knives, use them until they don't cut as well (depending on the amount of use, the knife and how well you sharpen, for a home cook, this might take a week or a month or more), then run it over a strop (or strop on a fine stone) to refresh the edge. Stropping will gradually become less effective as the metal at the edge fatigues. When stropping stops giving acceptable results, refresh the edge by sharpening on a fine stone. Repeat. Eventually the fine stone will stop fixing the edge and you'll need to move to a medium stone.

Yeah, what he said.