From my experience, be careful with PayPal

[Gjackson98]

To all KKF family,
If you are buying or selling through PayPal (especially selling in this case), be very careful with the little details to avoid scam.

As we want to trust everyone here with 100% of our heart and soul, PayPal do not.

Big thanks to the friend who saved my uss.

Few tips I will give:
1. Only sell to people you trust, or ask around to do a credit check before process.

2. Confirm the address on PayPal and the address he/she asked you to sent to are the same, otherwise no protection for the seller.

3. Be extra careful with international purchase/ sale. Often means less protection.

4. Actually read BST rules.

Below is my story:

In need of cash to cover some bills, I posted a knife for sale around thanksgiving time. the buyer with the highest Offer asked me to do a bundle deal with another knife of my.
After confirming the purchase, he issued me 50% down payment then the other 50% the following Monday (both business purchase).

The buyer is from Brazil (PayPal shows Brazil) but asked me to ignore the address and ship to his vacation home in Miami FL USA. As he will be there during Christmas, his building front desk will receive the knife and hold it for him till arrival.

I then shipped out the knife today at noon.

Shortly in the afternoon I was reached by a friend raising concerns about how fishy this might be base on buyer’s previous posts and reactions.

I contacted PayPal, and PayPal explained to me how I will not be protected due to shipping to a different address than what showed on PayPal account; even with email and DM conversation history they can’t proof if it’s the same person. The PayPal representative claims that this can very possibly be a oversea scam and suggested me to go chase my package back.

In result I got to the USPS 15min before the truck leaves and got my knives back. Woohoo!

I then reached out to the buyer and explain the situation to him and told him to change the address on the account or pay me Friends and family, I will cover all the lost in fees. As he continually refused to accept the refund and came up with fishy excuses, I have pretty much got my mind settled.


In this event I lost 73dollars in shipping, and now gotta try to figure out how to get all the money back within a day. But looking on the bride side I didn’t loose two knives and leave some bad taste in my mouth.

Thanks again for the friend who came and woke me up.
I don’t want to mention any names here as I don’t have 100% proof if the buyer is a scam, There is no need to damage anyone’s reputation here without proof.

BR

 

[Corradobrit1]

Hope that wasn't the Kato. Yes, reading your timeline and the contact with the buyer raises huge red flags. Principally shipping to a different address. Well done catching this before it was too late.

 

[Gjackson98]

Hope that wasn't the Kato. Yes, reading your timeline and the contact with the buyer raises huge red flags. Principally shipping to a different address. Well done catching this before it was too late.

It surely was my kato lol, takohiki bundle with dammy.
Good thing it didn’t go south on me, otherwise I will have a real thin Christmas (or 2 maybe 3)

 

[Matus]

It sounds that escaped from being scammed just by a hair. Thank you for sharing experience and reminding the rest of us to be more careful.

 

[ian]

Good to know. So, what could have happened? Could the buyer have complained that they didn’t receive the shipment, and then asked Paypal for a refund, after which Paypal would bill you for the reimbursement, since you couldn’t prove that you’d shipped to the authorized address?

I’m confused about how they handle all this, since what’s to stop the buyer from claiming that you sent him a box with a couple paperweights in it instead? I’m assuming you don’t take selfies of yourself and the post office clerk displaying the package contents right before mailing.

 

[Barmoley]

As a seller, PayPal protection is very little. The buyer can screw you many ways, sell to people you know or take your chances.

 

[Gjackson98]

Good to know. So, what could have happened? Could the buyer have complained that they didn’t receive the shipment, and then asked Paypal for a refund, after which Paypal would bill you for the reimbursement, since you couldn’t prove that you’d shipped to the authorized address?

I’m confused about how they handle all this, since what’s to stop the buyer from claiming that you sent him a box with a couple paperweights in it instead? I’m assuming you don’t take selfies of yourself and the post office clerk displaying the package contents right before mailing.

Base on what PayPal representative told me. The buyer can claim never received the package, and that’s the end of the game, you can present whatever paper documents and proofs, PayPal won’t protect the seller if not sent to the PayPal address (not saying if you do sent to the right address you will for sure be protected).

Base on PayPal buyer agreement, as a buyer you can claim under these 3 situation, I only remember 2 that are useful:
1. Never got the package
2. Things inside is (a lot) different than described

 

[WildBoar]

Buyer can send PayPal a photo of a mangled Wusthof and claim that is what you sent, and get a 100% refund. They do not even need to send the 'item' back to you.

 

[Matus]

It is unfortunately indeed true - buyer can scam the seller much more easily. It may make sense to photo-document the packaging process and the item that was sold/shipped. May help to persuade PayPal that you indeed shipped what you were supposed to. Now whether that will actually help is hard to guess.

Short of third-hand-services (complicated and most likely not cheap) I am not aware of any option that would offer reasonable protection to both buyer and seller.

 

[labor of love]

It is unfortunately indeed true - buyer can scam the seller much more easily. It may make sense to photo-document the packaging process and the item that was sold/shipped. May help to persuade PayPal that you indeed shipped what you were supposed to. Now whether that will actually help is hard to guess.

Short of third-hand-services (complicated and most likely not cheap) I am not aware of any option that would offer reasonable protection to both buyer and seller.

3rd party authenticating of merchandise would actually make sense as a business. No wonder some vendors don’t use PayPal anymore.

 

[mise_en_place]

If this is actually a scam, why don't you tell us who the buyer was? I think most of us would prefer to not deal with that person in the future.

Additionally, I have dealt with a Brazilian on this site who has had me ship things to a US address with no issues. I wouldn't want other members jumping to conclusions about this person.

 

[WildBoar]

Additionally, I have dealt with a Brazilian on this site who has had me ship things to a US address with no issues.

Was there US address also a confirmed PayPal shipping address? The risk is when they give an address that they have not listed in PayPal.

 

[mise_en_place]

Was there US address also a confirmed PayPal shipping address? The risk is when they give an address that they have not listed in PayPal.

It was years ago and I don't remember.

 

[Forty Ounce]

It was years ago and I don't remember.

How would something from years ago be relevant now?

 

[mise_en_place]

How would something from years ago be relevant now?

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. I'd like to know who this person was described in the OP.

I said I'd like to know who they are, because I have dealt with a Brazilian member who requested I send a knife to a US address. I had no problems with him and don't want people to start making assumptions.

I understand the matching PP address, but was responding directly to WildBoar's question. It was years ago, and I can't remember if this member (who did nothing wrong or sketchy) had the US address as his PP or he specifically asked I send it somewhere else.

 

[labor of love]

I have had good transactions w a Brazilian member here too that asked that I send a knife he purchased to an address here in the US. We were very well acquainted prior to the sell so I didn’t sweat it.
However, that transaction was for a 300 knife, something like a Kato unicorn is different.

 

[Garm]

So much great info here! I'm off to peruse the BST section for knives I previously wouldn't have been able to afford..

Jokes aside, thanks for sharing important information. I'm getting ready to unload some gear as well.

 

[Bensbites]

Thank you for posting. I thought matching the shipping addresses only benefits the buyer, not the seller. Thank you for the education.

 

[Forty Ounce]

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. I'd like to know who this person was described in the OP.

I said I'd like to know who they are, because I have dealt with a Brazilian member who requested I send a knife to a US address. I had no problems with him and don't want people to start making assumptions.

I understand the matching PP address, but was responding directly to WildBoar's question. It was years ago, and I can't remember if this member (who did nothing wrong or sketchy) had the US address as his PP or he specifically asked I send it somewhere else.

I understand correctly. The person's name won't be shared, because it hasn't been confirmed as a scam. Like the OP said, it's not time to drag a name through the mud.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Thank you for the education.

We can never have too much of that

 

[labor of love]

Yeah, I’m actually not sure the buyer in the scenario even did anything wrong.
Seems more like this thread is about seller security.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Yeah, I’m actually not sure the buyer in the scenario even did anything wrong.
Seems more like this thread is about seller security.

Well not contacting the seller through KKF (the only place the Kato was advertised for sale) but indirectly through IG raises my eyebrow. Why would you go through all that rigamarole? Perhaps the buyer can add his side to the discussion as he clearly frequents the forum.

 

[thebradleycrew]

@Barmoley
I love the verification idea. Really interesting business model there. It's almost like a courier and verification agent. Trying to think of what you'd need to charge for it to make sense. I suspect you'd have to be talking $1000+ items. Could work for electronics and jewelry. Hmmmm. 5% commish, plus actual shipping costs?

 

[bahamaroot]

"I then reached out to the buyer and explain the situation to him and told him to change the address on the account or pay me Friends and family, I will cover all the lost in fees. As he continually refused to accept the refund and came up with fishy excuses..."

This is the part that raised flags with me making it look like possible scam.

 

[labor of love]

Well yeah I understand the red flags and warnings. But the buyer is under no obligation to to change his PayPal address, if the situation makes the seller uncomfortable then don’t make the sale. Still unclear to me that there was ever a scam involved.

 

[valgard]

I don't think there's necessarily a scam involved, Brazil is a PITA to import, something many US members might not understand as US has very lax import rules. It's pretty common to use proxies or secondary addresses in the US.
In this case, with such a big sum involved, the best choice is to not do the deal when there's mistrust.

 

[bahamaroot]

Never said it was a scam but there were reasons for concern.

 

[Barmoley]

@Barmoley
I love the verification idea. Really interesting business model there. It's almost like a courier and verification agent. Trying to think of what you'd need to charge for it to make sense. I suspect you'd have to be talking $1000+ items. Could work for electronics and jewelry. Hmmmm. 5% commish, plus actual shipping costs?

Wasn't my idea, it was @Matus + @labor of love. Everyone seems to take credit for @labor of love good ideas, I will take no part in it

 

[tgfencer]

I have had good transactions w a Brazilian member here too that asked that I send a knife he purchased to an address here in the US. We were very well acquainted prior to the sell so I didn’t sweat it.
However, that transaction was for a 300 knife, something like a Kato unicorn is different.

...I have dealt with a Brazilian member who requested I send a knife to a US address. I had no problems with him and don't want people to start making assumptions.

I understand the matching PP address, but was responding directly to WildBoar's question. It was years ago, and I can't remember if this member (who did nothing wrong or sketchy) had the US address as his PP or he specifically asked I send it somewhere else.

I'm not sure if this is who you are talking about @labor of love or @WildBoar , but I'd just like to say to everyone that our friendly Brazilian @Marcelo Amaral at least is an absolutely solid guy and not who the OP is referring to. I have acted as his occasional US-based intermediary for a few years now. He buys knives/stones, has them shipped to me, and later I ship them all in one package to save him international shipping costs. I'm honestly not sure how this process would be reckoned with Paypal since there has never been a problem thus far.

Maybe the OP can contact the mods privately to ask for advise concerning this sketchy dealing? It might be nice to invite the other party to address the concerns in this thread and explain is point of view. We don't want anyone unfairly thrown under the bus, but we also don't all our Brazilian members to be unfairly stigmatized or other sellers to take unnecessary risks. Just a few thoughts.

 

[Gjackson98]

If this is actually a scam, why don't you tell us who the buyer was? I think most of us would prefer to not deal with that person in the future.

Additionally, I have dealt with a Brazilian on this site who has had me ship things to a US address with no issues. I wouldn't want other members jumping to conclusions about this person.

“I wouldn't want other members jumping to conclusions about this person. “ that’s why I didn’t share names, as like I said I am not 100% sure he is scam but base on others input and feedback.