Gyuto recommendation

[yummycrackers]

Dear all,
Some two years into this endless rabbit hole, I have decided to call upon your communal wisdom for a suggestion. I'm looking for an (undersized) 240mm gyuto to slot in in between a Shibata Kotetsu and a Yoshikane SKD. I have found that the Shibata is fantastic for tasks requiring minute precision (brunoise, paper-thin julienne, etc.) but a bit too wispy for all-around daily use. The Yoshi, on the other hand, is fabulous and I use it as my daily driver but I would like something fully reactive, a bit taller, and perhaps a bit thinner at the spine (better food release would be a nice added bonus). My first instinct for an undersized 240 would be to look towards Sakai, in other words something like a Tetsujin/Kagekiyo/Togashi but this is where I'd like to call on your experience and hear your suggestions. Having just finished a phd, the budget is limited (preferably under $400), and I will probably end up going the B/S/T route, but first I need to figure out what to look for.
Many thanks in advance for your suggestions!

 

[tostadas]

Are you looking for the same sort of laser like cutting performance of the shibata and yoshi?

 

[Nemo]

Congrats on your pHD, Doctor.

What did you study?

Is your Yoshi SKD one of the thin ones (like the Nashijis and some ot the Tsuchimes) or one a more workhorsey grind (like the other Tsuchimes, including the one I own)?

If you are looking for a knife thinner than a thin Yoshi, there isn't that much room to move before you hit laser thin.

You generally don't get better food release unless you move to a thicker knife (check out @Kippington's excellent thread "A basic explanation of assymetry" for an explanation). The thicker versions of Yoshi have great food release. The thinner versions, not so much.

If you are looking for a budget reactive thinner knife that gets all of the basics right (and then some), it's definitely worth looking at the KU versions of Shiro Kamo. Mine is the AS version from KnS (James calles it "Shinko Selian"). It has a slightly concave grind (note that my SK AS Sujihiki has a convex grind). I have MANY knives, some of which are MUCH more expensive yet this knife is often in my rotation (including at the moment). It tends not to be undersized, though. It's a moderately tall blade.

Kagekiyo is certainly a lovely knife. Significanly better cosmetic finish than the Shiro Kamo Ku. Perfomance in the same ballpark, but it's a bit thicker at the spine so a little more wedgey in tall foods. It's concave (almost flat, but not quite) ground wide bevel. Much more expensive, especially the blue1 version. I have the White2 Version (it was my first carbon knife). It is not a tall blade. The lacquer handle can get a little slippery (less of an issue with a true pinch grip). The White steel has (like most White2 blades) limited edge retention and very easy sharpening.

Can't comment on Tetsujin or Togashi.

If you are able to find an Akebono or Akatsui on BST, they are excellent thin (not laser) knives. Unfortunately, they come up very rarely. They are both Sakai knives, sharpened by Tosa. Akebono is Blue2, Akatsui white2. Akebono is true to length, Akatsui runs short. Both are thin knives with a convex grind.

If you are after a middleweight blade, I can recommend Mizuno Tanrengen Hontanren Blue2. I have the wide bevel but the grind of the non wide bevel is said to be very similar. It has a convex grind. It runs a little short and is not a tall

The Nakagawa Blue1 is a decent concave ground middleweight knife. Runs a little short and is not a tall blade.

If after something heavyweight, look at Watanabe/ Toyama (although all of the new ones are stainless clad and the ironclad ones don't come up that often in BST). They run true to size, are thick and tall. Very hard HT of blue2. Excellent foodmrelease.

Also look at Mazaki. There have been so many different versions of this knife that it's hard to keep track. Some people find it very underwhelming, others love it. I suspect due to different people receiving different iterations of the knife. I don'tknow whether The grind has setted into a happy place or not. Mine is a convex ground pseudo wide bevel. It's great workhorse with a decent taper and a very hard White2 heat treatment. it has a VERY reactive cladding. Needs a good patina. Runs true to length and is reasonably tall.

 

[kitchensamurai1]

Since you specifically mentioned the Kagekiyo, this is currently in stock and would fall within your budget.

https://www.chuboknives.com/product...zi0JV5GFLDgPKPVICDZJSpX8sscvnsoBoCPgAQAvD_BwE

 

[yummycrackers]

@tostadas The shibata and the Yoshi (nashiji) feel quite different to me, just because the shibata has a very thin spine whereas the Yoshi's is much more substantial at the heel and then quickly tapers. But yes, similarly thin behind the edge, I'd say, since I've always liked that effortless cutting feel and haven't yet run into any issues (fingers crossed...).

@Nemo Thank you for such an exhaustive outline—those all look like splendid options. The phd was in comparative literature (hence the limited budget...comes with the territory). I actually already have a 210 Shiro Kamo gyuto (KU, AS, stainless cladding); a bit too much belly for my liking; nice and thin behind the edge but a bit thicker beyond that. Fabulous edge retention.
I have to say that I've never tried a proper middleweight/workhorse (other than a second-hand TF Nashiji I have which just needs thinning, but that's a different story). Worth a try? I'd be a bit concerned about wedging on denser foodstuffs.

@Kitchen-Samurai thank you for that—it does look very nice, though having tried Tanaka's W#2, I was after something with a bit more edge retention.

 

[Nemo]

Wedging vs food release is a perennial trade-off. I tend to value food release, especially in soft, wet foods or finely diced harder foods. My rotation usually consists of one thinner knife for hard foods and one thicker knife for wet foods.

Worth a try? Up to you of course (and probably depends on what you are cutting) but if you ignore thicker knives, you are missing out on a big part of kitchen knives.

If you like a particular knife bit the profile is too curved, the K-tip version sometimes (but not always) has a flatter profile.

If you have specific wants in the knife (such as a specific profile), maybe fill out the questionnaire. It's in a sticky at the top of the Kitchen Knife Knowledge Forum. Copy and paste it into this thread and answer it. Answers in bold or a different colour make it easier to skim read.

 

[yummycrackers]

@Nemo I have to admit that's something I've never considered. Having switched to j-knives from standard western ones, I tacitly assumed that thinner was better, though I've always been intrigued by the regard in which Toyamas/Watanabes are held on the forum. Besides food-release, what are the advantages of thicker gyutos? Does the added weight contribute to making them better "cutters"? I guess this is something I'd just have to try to understand.

 

[Cliff]

It is a question of preference. A heavier knife will do more of the work for you. I tend to grab lasers for small jobs and heavier, more convexed knives like Toyama for bigger projects.

 

[yummycrackers]

Interesting—that might be why I've always preferred the TF for bigger amounts (like onion soup) despite the fact that it's getting quite thick behind the edge.

 

[Nemo]

To my mind, the weight of a thicker knife is much less important than the geometry which improves stiction in wet foods and food shedding.

If you just want a heavy knife without good food release, there are many brands of "premium" mass produced Western knives that can do this for you

 

[M1k3]

I like thinner knives for dense produce. Like sweet potato. Thicker knives for everything else.

 

[jacobwilder5]

Tetsujin should fit the bill. Medium ish grind that feels solid and less delicate than a yoshi but still very thin behind the edge. Has more belly than yoshi (most do) but still a decent flat spot. It’s a good all rounder that I really enjoy and find myself grabbing more than my skd nashiji yoshi which I still really love.

I went with the kasumi version which you should be able to find around your price point on bst or at a good deal new.

 

[yummycrackers]

@jacobwilder5 Good to know—I've been trying to find one but just haven't managed to snag one yet. Should probably post a wtb in the classifieds.

@M1k3 That definitely makes sense. Out of curiosity, would something like a Takada/Yohei be considered an in-between option with its relatively thin, convex grind? Probably out of budget for me but still curious.

 

[M1k3]

I'm not sure. I haven't used those knives before.

 

[deltaplex]

Given your parameters, there are a lot of knives in the ~215-230 length that would seemingly fit the bill, but I feel like you're a little bit unsure with what you're trying to acquire. It sounds like you want another laser, if you're aiming for in between the Shibata and the Yoshi SKD. If that's the case, what are you hoping to experience with the new knife that isn't already covered by the two you currently have? Better fit and finish? Less flat edge profile? Monosteel instead of clad? Full carbon core steel and/or cladding that's reactive? Sakai wheel ground wide bevel? Or do you want a knife that's more different than the relatively similar two you listed as your target points?

 

[yummycrackers]

@deltaplex Great question—I think that's why I didn't fill out the knife recommendation questionnaire initially, since I was mainly keen on hearing people's suggestions about what might be worth trying in this price range (varied as those may be). Fit and finish I don't particularly mind, but I do want something fully reactive (clad or monosteel, though I guess the latter is rarer), probably Blue or AS since I want a bit more edge retention than my current W#2 Hado, but I'd equally be open to other options. Never having tried a wide bevel, I'd be curious to hear what people's thoughts are on them. I'm also wondering whether something like a Tetsujin or Kagekiyo (for instance) would be significantly different enough from the Shibata and the Yoshi to justify trying. Given what several people have suggested, I will also look into middle/heavyweight gyutos, since I know precious little about them.

 

[Nemo]

IMO, wide bevels are a great way to learn knife maintenance. The thinning bevel is built in for you. If you don't learn to maintain your knife's thinness behind the edge, its performance will begin to diminish after a few sharpenings. It's not hard to learn but makes a big difference.

Depending on the grind, this can sometimes increase wedging in tall foods (especially if the shinogi line is crisp and proud) but this is not usually a major consideration. FWIW, around a half of my knives are wide bevels and they are very often in my rotation (both of the knives currently in the rotation are wide bevels).

There are 3 main types of wide bevel:

Concave (like it was ground on a big wheel).
Flat (actually usually very slightly concave, which becomes apparent when you thin it).
Convex.


Concave and flat ground wide bevels are slightly easier to learn to thin: Just lay the wide bevel flat on the stone and grind until the edge bevel is fairly narrow (maybe half to a quarter of a mm). You will notice that there is a little ("flat" ground) or a bigger (concave ground) strip in the middle of the wide bevel that you can't grind. Don't try to. Just thin to the point where your edge bevel is narrow. If the strip of unground metal really worries you, use a bit of sandpaper to even the finish out. I rarely bother. It actually looks pretty cool, especially witha patina on it. I will say to be super careful doing this if the edge is still sharp. I usually blunt the edge by very gently breadknifing on my finest available stone before doing any sandpaper work near the edge. This technique makes it very easy to restore the edge later on. Don't ask why I started doing this.

Convex wide bevels are a little more involved but easy with a little practice. It's a bit like doing a hamaguri sharpening on both sides of the blade. Watch @JBroida 's excellent videos on single bevel sharpening (YT or on the JKI website). The key is that metal is removed mainly from where you put pressure on the blade when grinding. I usually start with pressure just behind the edge, (which removes metal just behind the edge), then pressure just below the shinogi line (which removes metal at the shinogi, effectively moving it up the blade, very slowly). the idea is that the shinogi should move up at the same rate that the edge moves up (a fraction of a mm unless you have let the knife get superthick behind the edge). The third step is to grind with pressure on the middle of the wide bevel, allowing the wide bevel to wobble between the angle at which you thinned behind the edge and the angle at which you ground the shinogi. This creates a smooth curve between your two previous thinning angles.

 

[yummycrackers]

@Nemo That's very helpful, thank you! I'm quite familiar with sharpening single-bevel knives since I regularly use a deba for fish-butchery, so a wide-bevel gyuto shouldn't make for too steep of a learning curve and the ease of thinning would be a definite bonus. I was a bit concerned that the bevel might cause wedging, as you mention, so it's good to know that it isn't too much of an issue. I corresponded with John at JKI and I recall his mentioning the same thing. Any particular recommendations in this price range?

 

[Nemo]

I corresponded with John at JKI and I recall his mentioning the same thing. Any particular recommendations in this price range?

Yes, but if you correspond with Jon, that would be an excellent place to start.

Just reviewing your OP, is your Yoshikane not a wide bevel? Or are you asking about convex grinds?

In ironclad knives, the two convex ground thicker knives that I have are Mizuno Tanrengen Hontanren (also available as a non wide bevel and note that there seems to be a bit of variation in the grind thickness) and Mazaki (mine is a kind of shinogi-less wide bevel). Both have good food release. If willing to go stainless clad, the thicker (check with the vendor to make sure it's a thick grind, there are some thinly ground ones) Tsuchime Yoshikanes and the similary ground Wakui Tsuchime have great food release.

 

[deltaplex]

Yes, but if you correspond with Jon, that would be an excellent place to start.

Just reviewing your OP, is your Yoshikane not a wide bevel? Or are you asking about convex grinds?

In ironclad knives, the two convex ground thicker knives that I have are Mizuno Tanrengen Hontanren (also available as a non wide bevel and note that there seems to be a bit of variation in the grind thickness) and Mazaki (mine is a kind of shinogi-less wide bevel). Both have good food release. If willing to go stainless clad, the thicker (check with the vendor to make sure it's a thick grind, there are some thinly ground ones) Tsuchime Yoshikanes and the similary ground Wakui Tsuchime have great food release.

The Yoshi is, The shiro kamo also mentioned certainly is. Let's just post some representative choils:
OP Owns:
Shibata:

Yoshi:

Shiro Kamo:

TF Nashiji:

Spine thickness in the Shibata-Yoshi range:
Kono Fuji:

NakagawaxMyojin:

Sakai Kikumori Tanaka:

Tetsujin:

 

[deltaplex]

These all have thicker spines than the Yoshi:
Sanjo:
Heiji:

Wakui:

Mazaki:

Toyama:

Munetoshi:

Other thick spine thin grind blades:
Kyohei Shindo

Birgersson:

 

[yummycrackers]

It's very helpful to see those side by side—thank you! I guess I didn't really think of the Yoshi (or the Shiro Kamo) as wide-bevels because neither has a clearly-defined shinogi, but otherwise they do of course have wide bevels.
@deltaplex will the knives in the Shibata-Yoshi spine thickness range offer very similar cutting performance to those two or is there something that sets them apart enough to warrant trying?

 

[deltaplex]

I don't have near enough experience with that group, which can all be lumped together as Sakai Gyutos, to be able to say; my preferences lean towards Sanjo for gyutos, and Sakai for single bevels.

There are many MANY members here that have used all or pretty much all of the Sakai offerings that would be under consideration given your budget, @itzjustchris1 and @enrico l are two that come to mind quickly, I'm pretty sure @tostadas has probably used a bunch of them, too. I will say that most of those are going to be at the top of your budget (or above), but that there are probably slightly less expensive lines on offer that have the same blacksmith and sharpener combination.

 

[itzjustchris1]

Under $400 sakai and under size 240. Are you looking for Carbon or Stainless? If you’re looking for a good Stainless then there’s a Hitohira Silver 3 Kikuchiyo x Ren 240mm floating around. It’s 230 length with 51-52mm height. I recently got mine and will be doing a handle swap. The spine and choil is well polished and it get really thin behind the edge. Kikuchiyo x Ren 240 Ginsan

Here’s a choil shot of mine with 53 height.

 

[yummycrackers]

Under $400 sakai and under size 240. Are you looking for Carbon or Stainless? If you’re looking for a good Stainless then there’s a Hitohira Silver 3 Kikuchiyo x Ren 240mm floating around. It’s 230 length with 51-52mm height. I recently got mine and will be doing a handle swap. Kikuchiyo x Ren 240 Ginsan

Thank you for that—I wasn't aware of it. I also saw the Migoto ginsan on BST this morning, but all things being equal I would much prefer carbon.

 

[itzjustchris1]

Thank you for that—I wasn't aware of it. I also saw the Migoto ginsan on BST this morning, but all things being equal I would much prefer carbon.

Is there a particular carbon steel that you really prefer? If you really want a laser with under $400 budget I would suggest to get thisHado Junpaku White 1 a little over $400 but I can help and give you discount code with 10% off.

 

[yummycrackers]

Is there a particular carbon steel that you really prefer? If you really want a laser with under $400 budget I would suggest to get thisHado Junpaku White 1 a little over $400 but I can help and give you discount code with 10% off.

Thank you, that's very kind! My only extensive experience is with W#2 (Yoshi and Y. Tanaka) and AS (Shiro Kamo), and I would probably want something closer to the latter in terms of edge retention, hence why I was thinking of trying one of the other blue steels. That said, with W#1 I suppose it also depends on the hardness it's treated to, though do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[itzjustchris1]

Thank you, that's very kind! My only extensive experience is with W#2 (Yoshi and Y. Tanaka) and AS (Shiro Kamo), and I would probably want something closer to the latter in terms of edge retention, hence why I was thinking of trying one of the other blue steels. That said, with W#1 I suppose it also depends on the hardness it's treated to, though do correct me if I'm wrong.

This Hado knife is forged by Y.Tanaka and we all know that his heat treatment is top notch. Most of my experience with Blue steels come’s from Blue 1 and it’s actually my favorite carbon steel. Love the edge retention and sharpenability of it. With the $400 budget it will be tough to see a B1 sakai brand new but if you want to go sanjo way there’s definitely a B1 knife under $400 and it this Hatsukokoro Yoake KU 240mm. Lots of people here have good experience with the knife including myself. It also have a migaki variant if you don’t like the kurouchi finish.

 

[jedy617]

I find tanaka white 1 way better than the white 2. But can't go wrong with tanakas blue of course

 

[yummycrackers]

@jedy617 Good to know—I've found the W#2 somewhat underwhelming, so the W#1 might be worth a try.

@itzjustchris1 I've heard a lot about the Yoake recently, so I might give that a think, though I'd also be happy to go the BST route to get a Sakai B#1/B#2.