Hardest Waterstones?

[The_Real_Self]

So I've been looking for something harder than the Sigma 1000 & 2000 waterstones I just picked up because I want something to finish the apex with that doesn't really release abrasive at all. I know oilstones or Spyderco ceramics will fulfill this but I'm wondering if there is something roughly equivalent to this from Japan... because I like to support traditional Japanese producers.

Shapton Glass : read to be one of the hardest waterstones... is it truly?
Shapton Professional : also noted to be very hard and slow to go out of flat
Naniwa Habiki : Said to have an extremely durable bonding and hold its true very well

What are your experiences and thoughts?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Support traditional Belgian or Arkansas products.

 

[The_Real_Self]

Support traditional Belgian or Arkansas products.

You know what, I can't argue with your logic and I may have to renew my interest in those (which was lost many years ago for some reason).

 

[spaceconvoy]

Or Cretan! They are cheaper and much prettier, and grit that's well suited to kitchen knives

 

[Up_dog128]

Are you specifically looking in the 1-2k range? Quite often different grit stones in the same product line will have differing hardness.
I use the shapton glass HR series extensively, and they are indeed quite hard for waterstones.
If you're really wanting something in that range that stays flat and doesn't release abrasive, you could consider diamonds (either plate or bonded stones)

 

[Troopah_Knives]

BBB diamond stones 100% win this award.

 

[The_Real_Self]

Are you specifically looking in the 1-2k range? Quite often different grit stones in the same product line will have differing hardness.
I use the shapton glass HR series extensively, and they are indeed quite hard for waterstones.
If you're really wanting something in that range that stays flat and doesn't release abrasive, you could consider diamonds (either plate or bonded stones)

1-2K, correct. My main focus is being able to do edge forward strokes without having loose grit impact the apex and dull the knife at the same time I'm trying to bring out high sharpness.

BBB diamond stones 100% win this award.

They also win the award of being the most expensive stone EVER aside from naturals! That said, I don't see much value in having one of these.

 

[refcast]

JKI diamond 1000 is spot on

 

[Jovidah]

They also win the award of being the most expensive stone EVER aside from naturals! That said, I don't see much value in having one of these.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

 

[Rangen]

You're pretty much on the track. Aside from diamond, the hardest, densest waterstones I know are:

Shapton Glass
Naniwa Hibiki
Suehiro Gokumyo

For refining an apex as much as possible for the grit, I'd go with the Shapton Glass stones. I once shaved off of an edge from the 1000. They just seem to get more and more refined as you lighten the pressure. The Hibikis are maybe just a little too rough-surfaced to be perfect for that, even though they are very unforthcoming about releasing grit. The Gokumyos might be just as good as the Glass for ultimate refinement, but I haven't spent nearly the hours on them, so I can't say.

If you want a really really refined edge, though, you have to keep rinsing off swarf. It's not just slurry that can rough up an edge.

 

[JPO]

The Morihei 1k and 4k is also one option. They are not as fast as the Shapton gs or naniwa pro.
The 4k is in my opinion closer to a 2k if you comparr to a Naniwa pro. I have compared these two with a microscope while honing a straight razor.

 

[M1k3]

Vitrified diamond from any maker.

Resinoid diamond stones.

Norton India fine (kind of coarse but super hard. Just let it glaze over.).

Shapton Glass in the 3k+ range.

 

[Naftoor]

I’ve got some of spydercos ceramic stones, some nephrite jade, some scorpion forge mystery chinese/Russian stones and a translucent. They’re all very fine, and pretty slow. Still trying to figure out how/if/where jade fits in. The scorpion forge is a stone I will either leave to my kids or be buried with depending on if I have them and how much they annnoy me. Even the coarsest spyderco stone is still very fine and therefor slow. I kinda forgot about the translucent pocket stone, I need to dig it up and see how it behaves for touch ups.

I’m not really worried about any of them dishing, but I also don’t bother with anything past a very simple stainless, or carbon steels since it simply isn’t worth the time.

From what I’ve heard, if you want good cutting performance and hardness you want the BBB vitrified stones. They seem to be out of stock frequently, are pretty expensive but seem to be the best there is for those two categories. I have no idea what kinda edge they give, but it’s diamond so I imagine it cuts steel with no issues

 

[Barmoley]

From what I’ve heard, if you want good cutting performance and hardness you want the BBB vitrified stones. They seem to be out of stock frequently, are pretty expensive but seem to be the best there is for those two categories. I have no idea what kinda edge they give, but it’s diamond so I imagine it cuts steel with no issues

Excellent stones. Very uniform finish, scratch pattern and fast on all steels. Hard matrix, which can be good or bad depending on preference, but they feel pretty good, don't dish, might eventually, and are not thirsty at all. JKI 800 vitrified diamond is supposed to be excellent too, haven't tried that one. Doesn't sound like that is what OP wants though.

 

[Blank Blades.]

BBB diamond stones 100% win this award.

If only they were ever in stock lol.

At this point i just imagine theres a giant list of people signed up for email notifications for when they get back in stock, and they just sell out immediately.

For a currently available option. Ive heard the jki stone is very good for this also.

 

[Blank Blades.]

Tbh. I really like using the dmt coarse, or fine for this. Just a cheap option, compared to the bonded diamond, or cbn abrasives. But they can actually work very well for this job.

The synthetic japanese waterstones people listed above are good options if youre wanting aluminum oxide waterstones for the job.

 

[The_Real_Self]

For what it's worth, it's not so much dishing that's the problem (I have Nano Hone NL-10 lapping plate which is made for anything up to sintered ceramics) but rather the spent grit so I want something that essentially holds tightly to the abrasive and basically needs lapping to release it as it wears. It sounds like the higher grit Shapton's will be the ticket so I may give them a go.

 

[Blank Blades.]

For what it's worth, it's not so much dishing that's the problem (I have Nano Hone NL-10 lapping plate which is made for anything up to sintered ceramics) but rather the spent grit so I want something that essentially holds tightly to the abrasive and basically needs lapping to release it as it wears. It sounds like the higher grit Shapton's will be the ticket so I may give them a go.

Yeah, thats why i prefer to finish one diamond stones or plates. Even with low alloy steels. Because theyre the best stones ive found at holding onto grit besides certain natural stones. While still having great cutting power

 

[The_Real_Self]

Yeah, thats why i prefer to finish one diamond stones or plates. Even with low alloy steels. Because theyre the best stones ive found at holding onto grit besides certain natural stones. While still having great cutting power

So would something like an Arkansas stone hold onto grit more firmly than would be expected of the Glass Stones? It's my understanding that the Shapton GS basically require lapping to release grit as they don't tend to do it on their own unless you are using heavy contact pressures.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So would something like an Arkansas stone hold onto grit more firmly than would be expected of the Glass Stones? It's my understanding that the Shapton GS basically require lapping to release grit as they don't tend to do it on their own unless you are using heavy contact pressures.

I use SG500, 2k and 4k and various Arks. Arks shed very little grit, especially if you go with a hard on up. Blacks release pretty much zero.

Now, they aren't going to be real good on high carbide steels but on simpler stuff like the shirgami and aogami families, ginsan, VG10, 52100, etc. I think they do well.

 

[Blank Blades.]

So would something like an Arkansas stone hold onto grit more firmly than would be expected of the Glass Stones? It's my understanding that the Shapton GS basically require lapping to release grit as they don't tend to do it on their own unless you are using heavy contact pressures.

I feel like he answered that pretty well.

Also there are the kinds of natural stones mentioned earlier in this thread like coticules, and cretan. Although i don't have any personal experience with those.

The hard ark i have, does release little to now abrasive those.

Also. Since this is kitchen knife forums. Ill do the obligatory jnat mention.

I feel like you can find something fairly hard, like a razor stone, for a good price. Since most people seem to go for the softer stones for the purpose of doing kasumi finished. A decently hard stone could probably be found relatively affordably. Especially if you pick up a koppa.

What humblehomecook mentioned is true though. You are more limited in the steels you can effectively use it on, if you go with a natural stone for this, because the minerals that make up the stone just aren't as hard as diamond, cbn, aluminum oxide, or silicon carbide. At least you cant use them with as good of results as you might get with different abrasives for certain steels.

However if you only plan to be using this with stuff like carbon steels, or simple stainless steels. You should be ok.

 

[Blank Blades.]

I feel like he answered that pretty well.

Also there are the kinds of natural stones mentioned earlier in this thread like coticules, and cretan. Although i don't have any personal experience with those.

The hard ark i have, does release little to now abrasive those.

Also. Since this is kitchen knife forums. Ill do the obligatory jnat mention.

I feel like you can find something fairly hard, like a razor stone, for a good price. Since most people seem to go for the softer stones for the purpose of doing kasumi finished. A decently hard stone could probably be found relatively affordably. Especially if you pick up a koppa.

What humblehomecook mentioned is true though. You are more limited in the steels you can effectively use it on, if you go with a natural stone for this, because the minerals that make up the stone just aren't as hard as diamond, cbn, aluminum oxide, or silicon carbide. At least you cant use them with as good of results as you might get with different abrasives for certain steels.

However if you only plan to be using this with stuff like carbon steels, or simple stainless steels. You should be ok.

Reading this again. this must have been one of those posts i made while falling asleep typing. So many typos lol

 

[mockit]

The Morihei 1k and 4k is also one option.

Great stones but way too soft for what the OP is after. The 4k in particular is quite muddy.

Edit: Lol sorry just saw the dates on this !

 

[Bolek]

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251...5!sea!US!709621547&curPageLogUid=yTHqZ0wzlsEQSintered ruby is very hard. I use it with window cleaning liquid (with alkohol) as I do not like oil.