Has carbon steel become redundant

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Godslayer

Godslayer

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Simple question I've been thinking about for the last 2-3 minutes that I think could lead to a good conversation. Is there any logical reason in 2016 to use carbon steel over the multiple stainless options. Realistically r2 aebl zdp189 g3 etc can all match carbon steel for sharpness and edge retention, toughness etc. The only downside I could think of was cost and even that for most of us is marginal. I was looking at hunting knives and couldn't for love not money think of a reason I'd want one in 52100 over aebl or any other powdered stainless blade.

Probably gonna make a few people mad with this thread. :knight:

Whilst writing this I look at my tanaka b#2 which at some point got wet and has me heat broken. Barkeepers friend can't get in the mail soon enough.
 
I say people shouldn't be lazy and keep their knives clean and dry. What's redundant is people complaining of the effort of the old ways of life. Three things I avoid with a passion are stainless steel knives, quartz watches, and skinny jeans. Oh yeah, and everclear. So many bad memories.

I saw a knife set of a person that was stainless steel. They just so happened to all be rusted at the base of the blade and near the handle connection.
 
If you weren't a long time member, I'd swear you were a troll trying to stir the pot.

I'll just take exception to your statement, "...r2 aebl zdp189 g3 etc can all match carbon steel for sharpness...", as will a few others here. Carbon steel still has an advantage in sharpness, although it is a small advantage.

That said, the choice between stainless and carbon comes down to individual preference.

Rick
 
You certainly have a point. I find good stainless to be "better" than good carbon more often than not. Perhaps, carbon can get sharper, but common, let's be realistic, at this level it is not noticeable on practice. However, edge retention is usually better on stainless or PM.
Said that, I own and planning on getting more carbon blades as well as stainless. It's all about the maker, HT, geometry, grind, looks, sentimental attachment, hype etc. etc. And the most important, it is all about variety. I am very glad there are so many options that it's hard to chose the next buy :)

In addition, I believe (might be wrong here) it's easier to work with carbon steel for the smith in general, hence the chances are that there are more good hand forged carbon steel blades vs stainless or PM.
 
There is no free lunch. What you get in stain resistance is paid for in the reduction of performance in other areas like ease of burr removal, edge stability. Notably edge stability is better in carbon steel than stainless steels. Supposingly an exception to this is AEBL heat treated by Devin Thomas.
 
I had a knife made by a highly regarded American maker in aeb-l. Hated it. Sharpening the damn thing was unpleasant at best and the steel couldn't handle an acute edge at all without crumbling up. Not for me.
 
Not trying to troll, just start a dialog/conversation. As far as my knives go I honestly can't say 100% the carbon steel knives have an advantage in performance. I will say they feel different on the stones, my fujiwara being the most glass like knife ive ever used. I also am defiantly not a lazy knife owner. In my 2+ years owning carbon knives this is the second time I've ever seen the reddish brown tinge of nightmares. I do consider being reactive a con and not a plus though. My question more or less stems from the modernization of super steels. I don't think any of us are going to say knife made from softer molybdenum is going to match a well made blades from 52100 or w#2 but a blade made from zdp-189 or aebl just might. I remember when devin put out a score guide for steels aebl placed first. Just something I've been thinking about. I will never drop carbon steel as I do like it and it's little charms. Especially whatever my kato is clad in, always interesting to look at.
 
I've always appreciated the feedback of carbon whilst cutting(first), and sharpening(2nd), over any stainless I've yet to work with.

Stainless always feels a bit muted on the board, and gummier on the stones IMO.
 
I thought the only benefit of carbon (practical) is sharpenability.
 
brainsausage said:
I've always appreciated the feedback of carbon whilst cutting(first), and sharpening(2nd), over any stainless I've yet to work with.

Stainless always feels a bit muted on the board, and gummier on the stones IMO.
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Of course imo you could add 52100 as having a crappy/gummy/fake feel on the stones. Only carbon I've found that I disliked...
 
chinacats said:
Of course imo you could add 52100 as having a crappy/gummy/fake feel on the stones. Only carbon I've found that I disliked...
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I honestly don't have enough experience with it. Just out of curiousity- What's some of the pieces you've tried that were indicative of what you described, Jim?
 
brainsausage said:
I honestly don't have enough experience with it. Just out of curiousity- What's some of the pieces you've tried that were indicative of what you described, Jim?
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I had a MT gyuto which most people seem to love. I had no problem with the steel until I put it on the stones and it just didn't feel what I would call real...again, just soft/gummy is about the best way I can describe it. One knife was enough for me...I've avoided it at all costs since. Should say that edge retention and stability was very good but felt like **** on the stones. I probably should give it another chance, but there are so many great carbons that I haven't felt the need.

As an aside, if I had to pick one steel (Japanese) that I really like, it would be a tossup between Blue 2 and V2. My favorite non-Japanese steels would be 1.2442 from Germany and whatever Swedish steel it is that Shigefusa uses.
 
panda said:
I think semi-stainless might have potential for carbon lovers, for example hap40.
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The semi-stainless from Heiji was exceptional, but I really hated the schwag stainless cladding so perhaps a mono semi?
 
Dave Martell said:
Evan, how dare you!?!
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Sorry lol. I wanted to hear opinions on the matter. I was looking at hunting knives. I live in jasper alberta. Little mountain town 4 hours to the closest city and I go camping a good bit. So I looked at knives and thougt stainless was a must. So I got thinking about stainless vs non stainless and metalurgy. Than I thought how far stainless has come. So than I thought is there any practical reason to use a non stainless knife. I than couldn't think of any major reason besides ease of sharpening and ease of heat treat. Ex 1075 can basically be done in a camp fire, a blow dryer, a bucket of water and a toaster oven. I thought about it for another few minutes and decided to post here. Getting us to think. What can I say Dave I like to ask the controversial questions. Coke or pepsi, jack Daniels or crown royal, playstation or xbox. You know the stuff we just don't talk about due to social stigma. P.S. I don't hate carbon I ordered a 300mm tamahagane honyaki yanagiba this morning. Carbon is King but does the possibility exist that being king isn't what it used to be.
 
why did you opt for tamahagane? i've read that it is best suited for push cutting and has very poor retention for slicing.

i used to be coke, now pepsi and xbox (was never playstation fan).
 
Godslayer said:
Carbon is King but does the possibility exist that being king isn't what it used to be.
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Yup. Especially when considering some of the semi-stainless steels. I still by a long shot enjoy using and sharpening carbon. Pettys and gyutos 210 and under are the only knifes I buy in stainless/semi-stainless, used for acidic foods and on the line where I can't be as ocd about knife hygiene.
 
Not that carbon is not what it use to be, stainless has got much better quality than it used to be. Still there is all kinds of crappy stainless which the majority of people use.
 
panda said:
why did you opt for tamahagane? i've read that it is best suited for push cutting and has very poor retention for slicing.

i used to be coke, now pepsi and xbox (was never playstation fan).
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Honestly it's going to be a show pony, honyaki tamahagane yanagi with hopefully(talking to people about it now) urushi makie saya(black saya, mount fuji, ocean, a few shark fins stick out of water, and a crescent moon) I work in a western kitchen and wanted to have a small(5 piece set of knives for super special occasions and as a show pieces. Thinking honyaki yanagi, Japanese damascus gyuto(takamura 270) , American damascus gyuto(randy hass 240 k tip), a honyaki gyuto and an American single bevel kiritsuke(will be damascus by haburn) All displayed on a traditional Japanese stand. This will be the third piece. Haburn ie coming in September 2017 and the honyaki gyuto in either spring or summer. I've decided to limit myself to one purchase a season, since joining to forum I've boughten 20+ knives and can't bring myself to sell any, I have given my sister and mom some though. I should note I use the takamura as one of my main home knives but being used 3-5x a week it still looks brand new.
 
panda said:
i think the citrus thing is overblown, i still use full carbon slicing up a bunch of lemons.
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Tomatoes are my main product that always gets a stainless knife (the skin being the true test). With a carbon knife, I can feel the knife get duller and duller after ever couple of tomatoes. 10# or so and I am starting to get disgusted. Stainless will keep on chugging along at the 'almost not sharp enough' stage for a very long time.
 
keithsaltydog said:
Not that carbon is not what it use to be, stainless has got much better quality than it used to be. Still there is all kinds of crappy stainless which the majority of people use.
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That was my point a 1960's carbon sabitier is a decent knife a 1960's/70's stainless is garbage by comparison... Not sure what year stainless came out. In 2016 a stainless konosuke is a good knife and a carbon konosuke is also a good knife.
 
panda said:
i think the citrus thing is overblown, i still use full carbon slicing up a bunch of lemons.
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Could not agree more. As Head Gardemanger went though cases of pineapple, tomato's, lemons, oranges, etc. with carbon gyuto's. Now retired have sold of some of my carbons & have some quality stainless knives.
 
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