how reliable is burr based sharpening really is ?

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boblob

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i decided to open this thread after my last post because this title is more accurate ...

so i want to hear your opinions on the subject
if i sharpen a dull knife on one side until a burr is formed and then i flip sides do 1 pass and then a burr is formed
1. maybe the burr formed so quicly because the same burr flipped its side ?
2. if it is the case in "1." then how is burr based sharpening a reliable method of telling you that you sharpened the side enough and telling you when to stop the sharpening because if its the case in "1." then i groud 1 side until burr is formed but ground almost none at all at the other side ... ????
3. i always heard folks say that the burr is an indication of apexing the edge , can you please explain it further to me ? i sharpen for a long time but never put much deep thought into it
i hope i been able to explain what i mean clearly
4.also what happens to the burr that you raised on the first side when you switch sides and grind the other side ?
 
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I understand your concern.
You could form a burr, see and feel it, even push it back on both sides and actually not having an apex.
If that apex was wide enough to begin with (or the angle lowered, behaviour being the same), it's actually a common issue with pocket blades. That's why you need more than feeling a burr on what seems to be both sides. Usually having the edge under a light, should offer enough visual aid to establish where you are with the apex. Obviously experience makes things easier.
But with kitchen knives that have thinner edges, it's less common since it's easier to power through the apex.
 
kayman67 said:
I understand your concern.
You could form a burr, see and feel it, even push it back on both sides and actually not having an apex.
If that apex was wide enough to begin with (or the angle lowered, behaviour being the same), it's actually a common issue with pocket blades. That's why you need more than feeling a burr on what seems to be both sides. Usually having the edge under a light, should offer enough visual aid to establish where you are with the apex. Obviously experience makes things easier.
But with kitchen knives that have thinner edges, it's less common since it's easier to power through the apex.
Click to expand...
what happens to the burr that you raised on the first side when you switch sides and grind the other side ?
kayman67 said:
Usually having the edge under a light, should offer enough visual aid to establish where you are with the apex.
Click to expand...
at what stage do you do this and what are you searching for ? reflections mean that it isnt apexed right ??
 
you're feeling a burr in one pass on the other side because the burr has just flipped/shifted to the other side, you need to feel for more burr/fuzziness along the length of the blade - otherwise you just have one side that's sharp.
the problem i had was you have to remember how the burr felt before on the original side and i wasn't getting a consistent apex

this was the hurdle i spent most of my time on before i got to hair popping sharp, all the youtube videos tell you to "just feel for a burr on both sides"

using a flashlight (i use cellphone flashlight) to look for reflections on the edge really helped me get consistent results off the stones, what you're looking for is to shine the light(an intense flashlight) perpendicular to the edge and look for reflections, those spots are not well apexed(for me, the spots are usually where the blade begins to curve).
 
Don't raise such a large burr on the first side and it will minimize flipping.

If you're concerned about burr flip, then do a swipe on the opposite side to pull the burr off and then continue to sharpen as normal.
 
dabes said:
you're feeling a burr in one pass on the other side because the burr has just flipped/shifted to the other side, you need to feel for more burr/fuzziness along the length of the blade - otherwise you just have one side that's sharp.
the problem i had was you have to remember how the burr felt before on the original side and i wasn't getting a consistent apex
Click to expand...
can you plase explain more i dont understand completly what you meant
 
What happens is that you might just push it back, expecially true starting with edge trailing, even more so with stones and some alloys (so not every sharpening surface and alloys would behave exactly the same). So having a burr on the other side right away isn't telling us that much about the apex. Apex could be there, but not necessarily.
To make thing even worse, sometimes there's a burr on top of what the apex should be. And you push a tip of that burr back. Under high magnification it's possible to see the burr and its plastic deformation to the other side, technically having one burr that feels like two burrs as sometimes "both" sides can be felt (you might encounter some people saying they got two burrs at the same time on both sides because they can actually feel them and this is a reason for that). And you get a false sense of apex development. A good practice to prevent this being an issue (as much as possible anyway), would be edge leading to manage the burr before and check. Light is very revealing at a macro level for us. If you don't see a clean structure on that side after edge leading, there's an issue. You should still remove alloy on that side (or whatever side might require more work to keep the geometry, but we might get into a different topic) and look to see when it's clean and even. Anything that's not, it's an issue that you need to address.
boblob said:
what happens to the burr that you raised on the first side when you switch sides and grind the other side ?

at what stage do you do this and what are you searching for ? reflections mean that it isnt apexed right ??
Click to expand...
 
daveb said:
A Sharpie is your friend.
Click to expand...
all looks good in the sharpie ... even used a loupe but it does not answer this " what happens to the burr that you raised on the first side when you switch sides and grind the other side ?"
 
dabes said:
you need to feel for more burr/fuzziness along the length of the blade - otherwise you just have one side that's sharp.
Click to expand...
how do i feel that ?
i know how a regular burr feels but i do not know what i am looking out for
 
boblob said:
how do i feel that ?
i know how a regular burr feels but i do not know what i am looking out for
Click to expand...
Establish a reference point after the first side and then compare after the 2nd side to it, since you're going off of feel it's never going to be a reliable indicator that the 2nd side is good. If you want reliable and going by feel, you're probably best off deburring after each side like HumbleHomeCook mentioned
 
good question, I never thought about this.

I'd say either deburr after the first side, like @HumbleHomeCook said, or check constantly for burr development:

when you flip sides, do a few passes only, less that you did on the first side to create a burr. the goal is to only flip the burr to the other side, without creating more burr. you know you achieved this when you feel a burr on the new side and no burr on the opposite side. then keep sharpening on the new side - now your goal is to make the burr larger. stop when your burr is consistent along the edge.
 
boblob said:
all looks good in the sharpie ... even used a loupe but it does not answer this " what happens to the burr that you raised on the first side when you switch sides and grind the other side ?"
Click to expand...
Do you sharpen soft stainless? I haven't seen large burr on hard carbon blade that would keep flicking from side to side. On a good steel you raise burr on one side, flip knife and old burr gets removed during first strokes.
 
icanhaschzbrgr said:
Do you sharpen soft stainless? I haven't seen large burr on hard carbon blade that would keep flicking from side to side. On a good steel you raise burr on one side, flip knife and old burr gets removed during first strokes.
Click to expand...
yes i sharpen soft stainless
 
Choppin said:
good question, I never thought about this.

I'd say either deburr after the first side, like @HumbleHomeCook said, or check constantly for burr development:

when you flip sides, do a few passes only, less that you did on the first side to create a burr. the goal is to only flip the burr to the other side, without creating more burr. you know you achieved this when you feel a burr on the new side and no burr on the opposite side. then keep sharpening on the new side - now your goal is to make the burr larger. stop when your burr is consistent along the edge.
Click to expand...
@Choppin interesting this is what i do i check burrs after almost every pass
 
boblob said:
yes i sharpen soft stainless
Click to expand...
Well now you know why nearly everyone hates freehand sharpening of soft stainless. Burr won't come off easily and when it does it could tear up edge sometimes.

Belt grinder is your friend. With stones you might try to use more pressure during edge leading rather than edge trailing. Personally I find that very uncomfortable. You might just ignore the fact that it keeps flipping. Until you decide to stop sharpening and deburr

Though I don't think you asked for sharpening advice, rather you asked what happens to the burr. Well, it keeps flipping. Because steel is soft and allow thin burr to flex easily you can have an evergrowing burr when you change knife sides. At least that's what i have experienced. Just accept the fact that burr on soft stainless steels is hard to deal with.
 
icanhaschzbrgr said:
Well now you know why nearly everyone hates freehand sharpening of soft stainless. Burr won't come off easily and when it does it could tear up edge sometimes.

Belt grinder is your friend. With stones you might try to use more pressure during edge leading rather than edge trailing. Personally I find that very uncomfortable. You might just ignore the fact that it keeps flipping. Until you decide to stop sharpening and deburr

Though I don't think you asked for sharpening advice, rather you asked what happens to the burr. Well, it keeps flipping. Because steel is soft and allow thin burr to flex easily you can have an evergrowing burr when you change knife sides. At least that's what i have experienced. Just accept the fact that burr on soft stainless steels is hard to deal with
Click to expand...
sharpening advice is greatly appriciated , i do not want to use powered equimpment and i sharpen those stainless knives for relatives....
 
boblob said:
all looks good in the sharpie ... even used a loupe but it does not answer this " what happens to the burr that you raised on the first side when you switch sides and grind the other side ?"
Click to expand...
You have the answer in my reply above, even with a specific situation.
But, in general, edge trailing, will flip right away and might generate the false idea of an apex or other issues (as that's what you are checking for). Sharpening is a simple process in itself, but quite a few things are happening there, more than we usually imagine.
So edge leading is a better practice to deal with the burr first (as it was mentioned right above that reply also, dealing with the burr is important) and check how that went. There's a bigger theory here, talking about removing the burr at a higher angle (very light pass) or maybe apply the kippington method (Kippington Deburring Video).
 
kayman67 said:
You have the answer in my reply above, even with a specific situation.
But, in general, edge trailing, will flip right away and might generate the false idea of an apex or other issues (as that's what you are checking for). Sharpening is a simple process in itself, but quite a few things are happening there, more than we usually imagine.
So edge leading is a better practice to deal with the burr first (as it was mentioned right above that reply also, dealing with the burr is important) and check how that went. There's a bigger theory here, talking about removing the burr at a higher angle (very light pass) or maybe apply the kippington method (Kippington Deburring Video).
Click to expand...
i use the kipp method to deburr
 
It’s interesting that this question about this prevalent phenomenon isn’t addressed much in online videos teaching sharpening, with a couple exceptions that I have come across. Peter Nowlan recommended using approximately the same number of strokes on side #2 after raising a burr on side #1. (This supposes raising a slight but even burr on side one). Then deburring very lightly on the same stone - more irrigation, less pressure - before proceeding to the next stone and repeating. And I believe Jon mentioned counting strokes also, but regarding thinning.

I’ve learned to finish with a light swipe through the corner of a wine cork, followed by stropping on smooth leather and/or denim stretched over a board.

I am writing this as a beginner.
I am only 14 months into learning sharpening. I am starting to be able to reliably cut vegetables with my sharpening results for more than a few meals, though I’m certainly not shaving with my knives. Clearly, this addresses only method, and not which stones for which steel - another matter altogether.
 
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kayman67 said:
And you push the burr towards the final step until you do that?
Click to expand...
i deburr after raising a burr on first side then i switch sides raise a burr there and after that i move to deburring i use the @Kippington method followed by some edge leading strokes and followed by a few strokes along the edge
 
boblob said:
i used it with the 800 but next time will use on the first stone
but i also use your method of the sectional deburring
Click to expand...
@Kippington 's method will be leaving a microbevel. Excellent with fine stones — supposed you're aware of it — but problematic with a 300 grit, as it will modify the geometry. Nothing "micro" about it, in fact. I still believe the 300 burr should get abraded on that very stone.
 
Benuser said:
@Kippington 's method will be leaving a microbevel. Excellent with fine stones — supposed you're aware of it — but problematic with a 300 grit, as it will modify the geometry. Nothing "micro" about it, in fact. I still believe the 300 burr should get abraded on that very stone.
Click to expand...
so do you recommend against @Kippington deburring method on the 300 grit stone ?
i could just do edge leading sectional like you do and stropping
 
boblob said:
so do you recommend against @Kippington deburring method on the 300 grit stone ?
i could just do edge leading sectional like you do and stropping
Click to expand...
Kip's method is not really related to a high angle in terms of apex development, it's a pass just to remove that burr flipping. And goes on with edge leading, as that's pretty much the better practice already mentioned.

Post in thread 'Kippington Deburring Video' Kippington Deburring Video

This is why my main concern with sharpening was always the fact that's not like a straightforward math reproduction, but understating the elements of the equation and using that knowledge rather than just mimic it.
So far we don't know how a single pass into that gets a burr on the other side immediately. And now there's the question of how exactly the method is done.
Initially the idea was that there can be a burr on both sides and not actually having an apex. This is not uncommon. But we moved to something else.
 
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