How would you choose a grail general purpose knife for your personal home cooking?

[josemartinlopez]

I'd like to start a thread so that I can visualize a future grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking. Not something to buy right away but to keep in mind as I explore my preferences with Japanese knives. Also interested in what questions I need to ask myself to visualize a personal grail knife beyond a specific knife recommendation. I browsed several other threads but couldn't find one about visualizing your personal grail knife, hence this thread.

LOCATION
Singapore. The hot and humid island at the equator featured in "Crazy Rich Asians".

KNIFE TYPE
General purpose, think "if you could only have one knife for everyday use..." Probably a gyuto though I wonder if santoku/bunka is the better answer.

Right handed.

Japanese handle.

Probably 240 mm gyuto or 180 mm santoku/bunka.

Stainless not required.

No budget for discussion purposes, but I want to visualize a knife I would use every day for actual cooking and would exclude inserting diamonds into the handle etc (kidding).

KNIFE USE
Home and personal use.

General purpose tasks, probably slicing/chopping/dicing etc. vegetables and simple jobs with fish and meat. I honestly don't see myself cutting down multiple turkeys, cutting up a huge slab of beef with bones or filleting large fish anytime soon but who knows where the rabbit hole leads.

No specific knife being replaced, grip or cuting motions, for discussion purposes.

No specific improvements, for discussion purposes, since I am visualizing a grail knife that would necessarily have all the improvements I could possibly want.

Not focused on aesthetics unless they do not affect utility/comfort. I would think the quality of a grail knife would show in itself, and simple aesthetics would only showcase that quality better. Wouldn't mind exploring a custom handle and nice finish since we are visualizing a grail knife. But my mindset is that it's the edge doing the cutting, not the handle or finish.

Would want a comfortable knife in terms of handle and balance, but I am still feeling out my concept of comfortable (ex. lighter/heavier).

I'll leave ease of use open since it can be defined in a few ways. Push cutting and slicing over rock chopping is probably fine. Don't think I'm concerned by food release up to a point, but would love a discussion on what the right mix of characteristics for a grail knife is. I wouldn't mind something high quality that you have to wash immediately after use or put in extra effort to learn to sharpen.

Edge retention is not a big deal, for discussion purposes, up to a point. Something that needs a few passes on a fine whetstone after every few uses should be fine (right?).

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Assume the grail knife can be provided with the right wood cutting board it needs, and the board will follow the knife.

Assume the owner will sharpen the knife personally.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I'd love to own and use a knife where you can appreciate the workmanship and heritage reflected by the knife each time you slice.

 

[lemeneid]

Holy grail knife? TF honyaki, I'm working on it

 

[ma_sha1]

Toyama & Shihan are my two best all around gyutos. They do Everything well, similar profile with high heel but not ridiculously high, thin on the edge but not skinny on the spine, both are solid middle weights, better than 90% of knives I’ve tried for general use. Shihan has tougher steel, can handle semi frozen meat that Toyama as well as most Japanese knives can’t without micro chipping. I am giving Shihan a slight edge over Toyama.

Not grail only because not rare, & prices are not high enough, not because of performance IMHO.

Kato WH performed similarly with a grail qualifying price. Shig. Kasumi can not compete without thinning job due to low grind, same goes for TF Denka, needs lots of work. I sold mine because the amount of work to make it to my satisfaction wasn’t worth It to me.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Holy grail knife? TF honyaki, I'm working on it

Good luck with that. Enquired about a honyaki a couple years ago and they weren't too eager. The example i saw was less than impressive.

 

[Corradobrit1]

same goes for TF Denka, needs lots of work. I sold mine because the amount of work to make it to my satisfaction wasn’t worth It to me.

Which is why its good to buy direct. Get them to refinish the blade with the characteristics you want. TF IV thinned my Denka and its the best cutting blade in my collection.

 

[ma_sha1]

Which is why its good to buy direct. Get them to refinish the blade with the characteristics you want. TF IV thinned my Denka and its the best cutting blade in my collection.

I agree, going direct is the best way for TF, I still have my Mab that I bought direct, still, I did 3 rounds of thinning to make it come closer to Toyama performance.

Another reason I kept Shihan over the Denka is
for semi frozen meat cutting, which I do it almost daily. I don’t thow the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. Denka shows sign of micro chipping despite the legendary reputation on heat treat, Shihan so far so good, no micro chipping yet.

I know most people would not subject their gyutos to such a task, but to me, it’s a legit need.

 

[Blerghle]

For me, this comes down to the tactile experience of cutting and sharpening, followed by workmanship/heritage, then visuals. Of the knives I have used (never spent more than ~$225, but some would now sell in the $400 range), the one that most fulfills these ideals is a Mutsumi Hinoura White #2 kurouchi santoku. The grind makes it an effective cutter that just feels great sailing through veg. A nicely heat treated simple carbon steel makes for great feedback when sharpening - more than ability to make a good edge, it just feels nicer than even good stainless steels. It has an identifiable maker, the son of a relatively famous smith. And it has an obviously handmade look.

In contrast to that, I have a Tadatsuna ginsan/stainless 270 gyuto. There isn't really anything the Hinoura does that this doesn't. It's thin, has a good profile, the stainless makes for easier maintenance, and as stainless goes it takes a good edge. But the grind seems indifferent, the steel doesn't feel as nice on the stones, and it has a more generic look despite being more expensive. I should probably do what I can to touch it up and then sell it, now that I'm putting it into words.

Going forward, some time down the line I will probably look for that Hinoura experience with a longer gyuto. From what I read here, TF is in the lead, with Toyama a consideration to try out the convex grind in contrast to the wide bevel/slightly concave Hinoura. I am comfortable using 240-270 gyutos, so budget willing, that's more of a do-it-all. But I can't see ever getting rid of the Hinoura and don't have a goal of doing so. The ideal/grail knife for me is always going to be part of a group of knives from different makers.

 

[ma_sha1]

Having had both Toyama and Hinoura, the Toyama cuts slightly better. Both were ~180g middle weight gyuto with similar high heel, very similar profile, the photo below shows them side by side.

Although the Hinoura looks thinner on the choil shot, the Toyama cuts better, I don’t know why buy it did.

However, Hinoura’s price is much lower, can’t beat it for the money, & I’d take it over the popular Kochi, very underrated IMHO.

Toyama & Hinoura side by side:

 

[Nagakin]

There's no reason your grail needs to be different at home.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Holy grail knife? TF honyaki, I'm working on it

Is there a thread where I can read up on the project specs?

 

[josemartinlopez]

Not grail only because not rare, & prices are not high enough, not because of performance IMHO.

Heh, so you'd say these are pretty much the top of the line in terms of performance, just not collectible so we technically can't call them grails?

 

[josemartinlopez]

I don’t thaw the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. ...

I know most people would not subject their gyutos to such a task, but to me, it’s a legit need.

Could you elaborate?

 

[josemartinlopez]

Toyama & Shihan are my two best all around gyutos.

Could I check which specific knives these are?

 

[HSC /// Knives]

Michael Rader, and I’m working on it
52100 integral

 

[ExistentialHero]

In general, I wouldn't look for one knife to do everything in the kitchen. A really great gyuto is a super useful tool, but you're never going to be happy using it to break down a chicken or a fish. There's a reason folks around here tend to have a stable of different sizes and shapes of knives--when a knife is specialized for a smaller set of tasks, it can be better at them than a single gyuto that's trying to cover everything.

If we're not worrying about cost, a great thing about this approach is that it means you get to buy more knives

I'm nowhere near the end of this journey, and tastes vary a lot, but here's where I've landed on knife classes I like and preferences within them:
* A big heavy workhorse gyuto: the daily driver. The best of these can take really fantastic edges and put a lot of weight behind them for when you just need to cut something. My current favorite in this class is a 275mm Catcheside "forged geometry" gyuto, and it's the knife I reach for most when I'm cooking.
* A laser gyuto or large petty: the onion knife. Sometimes you need something thin and pointy for fine tip work like dicing an onion. I'm still exploring this space but currently use a 240mm Konosuke Sanjo gyuto for this.
* A nakiri or chuka: the veggie chopper. I had a Watanabe Pro nakiri that I really liked in this space, but then I tried a Laseur chuka and fell in love with the extra height. I grab this whenever I'm dealing with a bunch of greens, a potato, or anything else that needs to be chopped rather than sliced.
* Specialty knives: I have a long sujihiki for big slabs of cooked meat and a honesuki for breaking down chickens that I use often. You'll have your own needs here.
* A beater: something for guests to use. Mine is a 10" Victorinox Fibrox; no sense in spending a lot of money here

 

[josemartinlopez]

In general, I wouldn't look for one knife to do everything in the kitchen. A really great gyuto is a super useful tool..

I should have phrased more precisely: How would you choose YOUR FIRST grail...

Better?

Thanks, that's an excellent outline.

 

[ExistentialHero]

I should have phrased more precisely: How would you choose YOUR FIRST grail...

Watch the BST here until you see something that tickles your fancy and jump on it Lots of great deals there if you're not already committed to something very specific.

The key thing is that a lot of this is personal taste. I really like gyutos with very flat profiles, for example, but most folks around here like some belly. Fastest way to find out what you like is to buy a few knives, and picking them up used means you can usually get back out without losing a lot of money once you decide which ones to keep and which to pass along.

All that said, if you're looking for a grail to lust after, mine is a big Raquin gyuto. My big Catcheside is doing me just fine, though

 

[josemartinlopez]

Why Raquin in particular?

I am quickly realizing that even if you bought just one each from the ten forum favorite blacksmiths, you would quickly go down the rabbit hole, and I better lose my Paypal password for a while until I've browsed a bit!

 

[Cliff]

For me, the one knife that does more things well than any other knife is a 270KS -- it's stiff enough for root vegetables and laser enough for delicate work. It also works as a slicer, though not as well as a dedicated slicer. But I like different kinds of knives, so..., I'll reach for a laser for soft veg and fruit and small tasks and a big Sanjo knife if I'm doing a big prep session.

 

[josemartinlopez]

Sorry what's a 270KS?

 

[Cliff]

It's a Masamoto Gyuto modeled on the old French Sabatier profile. Most people prefer the smaller 240 version -- both are oversized. They were cult knives awhile ago. I think fads have moved on, but they are great all around knives.

 

[Nagakin]

They're not for everybody, but with a consistent skillset a flat sabatier profile with a short heel really can do basically everything with just one knife. If you're going to be rough with chicken bones, old crispy bacon, dry stacks of lemongrass, semi-frozen ginger, etc. you'll be fine with a microbevel. The price point can make it hard, but well made knives can survive quite a bit of abuse.

 

[Jville]

I agree, going direct is the best way for TF, I still have my Mab that I bought direct, still, I did 3 rounds of thinning to make it come closer to Toyama performance.

Another reason I kept Shihan over the Denka is
for semi frozen meat cutting, which I do it almost daily. I don’t thow the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. Denka shows sign of micro chipping despite the legendary reputation on heat treat, Shihan so far so good, no micro chipping yet.

I know most people would not subject their gyutos to such a task, but to me, it’s a legit need.

I'm thinking your Shihan is made of 52100? If so, that's known to be a pretty tough steel. That may have something to do with the toughness, rather than, just it being a Shihan. Although, I heard someone say his ht of it was really good. And, of course, he does great work.

 

[Jville]

It's tricky when you start saying holy grail knife, because it implies encompassing every desirable quality without any weaknesses, basically perfection. It would cut every ingredient the easiest and also release them perfectly. It would hold the best edge while feeling the best on the stones, while being the easiest to sharpen. You can basically always find something that a knife is not the best at. For me, right now I'd say my favorite gyuto all around has been my Mert honyakis. They have workhorse grinds that are really thin behind the edge. So they have pretty thick spine with great distal taper with thin tips. They go through basically everything I can find with ease whether dense or soft veg, and the food release is good. They look good, feel good in hand, and have tall grinds. I also like honyakis or monosteel. It gives you the pleasure of carbon steel without dealing with the reactivity of iron clad. I loved my Toyama gyutos but I let them go in favor of my Merts (I still kept and love my 210 Toyama nakiri).

 

[ma_sha1]

I'm thinking your Shihan is made of 52100? If so, that's known to be a pretty tough steel. That may have something to do with the toughness, rather than, just it being a Shihan. Although, I heard someone say his ht of it was really good. And, of course, he does great work.

Yeah, it’s 52100 steel.

 

[Cliff]

It's tricky when you start saying holy grail knife.

Agree with this. It sounds like a museum piece, the greatest ever, but then it's to be the lone knife in the kitchen. I don't know how versatile the Grail was. It becomes a very personal thing quickly. If you're looking for the best one-and-done knife for daily duty, I think that's different from the most delicate, finely realized grind of the most refined steel. If you're talking about fine, high performance knives, they come in a wide range of styles, sizes, and so forth. I don't think we could achieve consensus on even a few.

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

My question for you is, how much do you got to spend for this grail knife?

 

[tchan001]

Holy grails on BST are bought within minutes. Witnessed the recent 2015-priced Kato and Shig being sold in a flash. So if you ever come across something you consider your grail on BST, you need to have had done your research on what you like beforehand, make a quick decision on whether the blade is in what you consider as acceptable condition, and have fast fingers for replying.
How much you spend on a grail knife depends on what you consider affordable. As a collector you would buy the best you can afford in the best condition. As a user, you would probably want a fair deal with something in a reasonable condition. As a project, you could find something cheap which you think you can fix up to become your usable grail. Good luck with finding your grail.

 

[Boondocker]

Masamoto

 

[lemeneid]

I agree, going direct is the best way for TF, I still have my Mab that I bought direct, still, I did 3 rounds of thinning to make it come closer to Toyama performance.

Another reason I kept Shihan over the Denka is
for semi frozen meat cutting, which I do it almost daily. I don’t thow the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. Denka shows sign of micro chipping despite the legendary reputation on heat treat, Shihan so far so good, no micro chipping yet.

I know most people would not subject their gyutos to such a task, but to me, it’s a legit need.

On the other hand, my Toyama honyaki was polished, sharpened and thinned by Lee, but it still does not hold a candle to my hand picked TF Denka which was everything out of the box!

That said, I do agree all knives will need a little work to get them perfect. Even my Denka I did spend a little time to polish down the bevels and make them even. It performs even better now! And I do have a little regret selling it but I’m getting a better knife so