Knife Learning Roadmap

[Jmast]

I was wondering if there is like a recommended sequence or flow of knives to get to learn what you like.

I just got my first couple knives over the holidays and now am salivating over some of the fancy big buck knives but don't want to make the dive without actually knowing what I like in a knife. There seems to be so many factors that would go in to knowing what higher end knives to buy or getting a custom done from shape and size, to steel, or geometry that I would love some recommendations on cheaper knives I could get to to try different combinations of factors to understand what I want. Ideally probably under $200 per knife and I would slowly collect them over time (already over spent on other stuff this month).

For the moment I think I am more interested in a gyuto, bunka, nakiri type knife then something more speciality like a deba, honesuki, etc.

I currently have a Gesshin Stainless 210mm Wa-Gyuto and a Shiro Kamo Aogami/Blue #2 210mm gyuto. I'm also learning to sharpen and have a Shapton Pro 1K and 320.

 

[Jmast]

Here is the questionnaire


LOCATION
What country are you in? United States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chef’s knife

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? More interested in Japanese but not opposed to a western handle

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? No preference probably like over 150mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? Around $200


KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing Vegetables, Chopping Vegetables, Mincing Vegetables, Slicing Meats, Trimming Meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Not replacing

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch Grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push, Draw

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Something new compared to knives I currently have, be it steel, geometry, shape, length. A combination of multiple would probably be great.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? NA since I’m trying to try multiple knives

KNIFE MAINTENANCE

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? NA

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) No

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Please reference the first post. Thank you!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I can tell you what I did and that's to target something different with each purchase. If you just buy blades that are adjacent to what you have but with little differences, you won't really have a deep pool of experience to draw from. I bought 180's, 210's, nakiri, santoku, gyuto, suji, wide range of steels, stainless and iron clad, different finishes, different regions, etc.

Knife Japan can be a good place to try some variety and good prices:

https://knifejapan.com/
@TokushuKnife offers forum members 15% off with code KKF15 and that can make some options really attractive.

You have to accept upfront that at these price points there's a fair chance you'll get a dud in there somewhere (over grind or some such), that fit and finish will be largely secondary and often sacrificed for performance, and that you will definitely be buying knives you end up not liking. But, there's also a good chance you discover you like something you don't even know about yet.

I had a blast trying different things and zeroing in on my preferences.

 

[brimmergj]

Like Humble said above, trying something different each time is a great way to go about the process.
Looking back at my journey, I started similar to you with a few different 210 gyutos with different steels. I felt it was nice to stay with what was familiar to me at the time, 8" German chef knife. It was good to see the difference in steel types on the board and sharpening as well.
Things got real fun when I started trying different knife types. Nakiris are a blast to use. My favorite part of trying new stuff is how adaptable and comfortable it's made me with different knives in my hand. One 210 gyuto can be very similar to another, but have just enough difference that you have to adjust your technique ever so slightly to be effective with that particular knife.

If you stick around long enough and are active enough, there are pass arounds, where folks let other people use their knife for a week or so, then ship it to the next guys and so on. Great way to try new stuff and chat with people.
In the meantime, I've got a 165 stainless clad super blue nakiri that you can play with if you want to. Just let me know and we can set something up via pm
Enjoy the journey and welcome to the madness

 

[Emieloss]

I would also suggest to keep an eye on the BST part of the forum here. Often times knives can be found cheaper than the store prices, you can test if you like it. And even sell for minimal loss on the forum when you don't.

 

[Jmast]

I can tell you what I did and that's to target something different with each purchase. If you just buy blades that are adjacent to what you have but with little differences, you won't really have a deep pool of experience to draw from. I bought 180's, 210's nakiri, santoku, gyuto, suji, wide range of steels, stainless and iron clad, different finishes, different regions, etc.

Knife Japan can be a good place to try some variety and good prices:

https://knifejapan.com/
@TokushuKnife offers forum members 15% off with code KKF15 and that can make some options really attractive.

You have to accept upfront that at these price points there's a fair chance you'll get a dud in there somewhere (over grind or some such), that fit and finish will be largely secondary and often sacrificed for performance, and that you will definitely be buying knives you end up not liking. But, there's also a good chance you discover you like something you don't even know about yet.

I had a blast trying different things and zeroing in on my preferences.

Thank you for the seller recommendations, I’m still a little trying to figure out what sites are legit so this is super useful!

 

[Jmast]

Like Humble said above, trying something different each time is a great way to go about the process.
Looking back at my journey, I started similar to you with a few different 210 gyutos with different steels. I felt it was nice to stay with what was familiar to me at the time, 8" German chef knife. It was good to see the difference in steel types on the board and sharpening as well.
Things got real fun when I started trying different knife types. Nakiris are a blast to use. My favorite part of trying new stuff is how adaptable and comfortable it's made me with different knives in my hand. One 210 gyuto can be very similar to another, but have just enough difference that you have to adjust your technique ever so slightly to be effective with that particular knife.

If you stick around long enough and are active enough, there are pass arounds, where folks let other people use their knife for a week or so, then ship it to the next guys and so on. Great way to try new stuff and chat with people.
In the meantime, I've got a 165 stainless clad super blue nakiri that you can play with if you want to. Just let me know and we can set something up via pm
Enjoy the journey and welcome to the madness

Wow that’s a super nice offer!! Just messaged you. Part of what got me into this forum in the first place was reading the pass around and wishing I could be a part of that. Hopefully, I’ll learn enough eventually to join one.

 

[Jmast]

I would also suggest to keep an eye on the BST part of the forum here. Often times knives can be found cheaper than the store prices, you can test if you like it. And even sell for minimal loss on the forum when you don't.

Whenever I look at the BST I wanna buy all the knives on there. They all look so cool and it would be great to participate I just don’t really know what I want in a knife right now which makes it hard.

 

[Emieloss]

I'd start with doing some research on several knifemaking area's in japan. And get a knife of each of the three big zones: A Sanjo, an Echizen (takefu) and a Sakai one.

That should give you a general idea of what to expect.

This is a great list to find out which region a blacksmith is from:
https://naturalwhetstones.com/japanese-knives-blacksmiths-sharpeners-regions-and-resellers/

 

[Jmast]

I didn’t even know different regions had different styles. That’s a great recommendation, thank you

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thank you for the seller recommendations, I’m still a little trying to figure out what sites are legit so this is super useful!

Both the sellers I listed are top notch. Michael of Knife Japan is the gold standard of customer service and Tony and his crew at @TokushuKnife are also awesome to deal with.

This thread may help:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/who-do-you-buy-from.52523/

 

[Cliff]

You have made a great start. Those are terrific knives. How are you for workspace? I'd consider a 240. My favorites in that price range are Moritaka's AS and Munetoshi. I've not tried Wakui and prices are going up, but those are terrific as well and I think can still be found in your price range.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Might not be a bad idea to use those two knives (which are great start, by the way) for a while and learn what you like or dislike about them. You can just randomly start buying knives and trying different things, but I think you get a better idea of you preferences if you bounce back and forth between a couple at first.

If you really are itching to try something different, buy a cheap Chinese style cleaver (e.g., a CCK 1303). That would be an inexpensive way to really break out of the box.

 

[Stevem627]

I think you have a couple of great knives. I agree the questionnaire will help give you recommendations.

Tokushu is a great place to shop, as is Homebutcher. Homebutcher is dangerous though…there’s lots of great knives, and Phil runs sales and discounts frequently.

 

[Jmast]

You have made a great start. Those are terrific knives. How are you for workspace? I'd consider a 240. My favorites in that price range are Moritaka's AS and Munetoshi. I've not tried Wakui and prices are going up, but those are terrific as well and I think can still be found in your price range.

I definitely have enough space for a larger knife. I’ll add those to the list. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Jmast]

Might not be a bad idea to use those two knives (which are great start, by the way) for a while and learn what you like or dislike about them. You can just randomly start buying knives and trying different things, but I think you get a better idea of you preferences if you bounce back and forth between a couple at first.

If you really are itching to try something different, buy a cheap Chinese style cleaver (e.g., a CCK 1303). That would be an inexpensive way to really break out of the box.

I totally agree that I need to spend more time with the knives I have currently. I’m just starting to get advice on future steps, plan out future purchases basically.

A cleaver would be interesting. Chinese cleavers aren’t meant for meats right? Instead more for vegetable?

 

[Jmast]

I think you have a couple of great knives. I agree the questionnaire will help give you recommendations.

Tokushu is a great place to shop, as is Homebutcher. Homebutcher is dangerous though…there’s lots of great knives, and Phil runs sales and discounts frequently.

I do find it hard to resist a sale… those mystery boxes from Homebutcher are kinda calling my name

 

[Cliff]

Might not be a bad idea to use those two knives (which are great start, by the way) for a while and learn what you like or dislike about them. You can just randomly start buying knives and trying different things, but I think you get a better idea of you preferences if you bounce back and forth between a couple at first.

If you really are itching to try something different, buy a cheap Chinese style cleaver (e.g., a CCK 1303). That would be an inexpensive way to really break out of the box.

I think you're likely better off with one of your gyutos, but what kind of meat preparation do you do most of the time? I like the suggestion of the CCK 1303. It's a classic.

 

[Fellax]

I would consider to buy a 3-4 k stone, 1k edge is ok, but with your current knives you can really enjoy a more polished edge

 

[Jmast]

I think you're likely better off with one of your gyutos, but what kind of meat preparation do you do most of the time? I like the suggestion of the CCK 1303. It's a classic.

Just fairly basic stuff like trimming meat, butterflying chicken, and the rare full bird breakdown

 

[Cliff]

Just fairly basic stuff like trimming meat, butterflying chicken, and the rare full bird breakdown

You should consider a petty in the 150-180mm range. I love Ashi Ginga for this. There are basically two styles (mini gyuto or min-slicer) and tons of options

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Just fairly basic stuff like trimming meat, butterflying chicken, and the rare full bird breakdown

I've cut up quite a few chickens with one of these guys:
https://knifejapan.com/kawatsu-hamono-funayuki-bocho-120mm-aogami-2/
Great little knife that I find myself using quite often. You do need to be mindful of the edge around bone but it is fully capable of "normal" chicken butchery and deboning.

For spatchcocking I use poultry sheers.

 

[Jmast]

You should consider a petty in the 150-180mm range. I love Ashi Ginga for this. There are basically two styles (mini gyuto or min-slicer) and tons of options

I do think a petty would be nice. Was initially thinking like a Takamura, would one of these be a better option?

 

[Cliff]

I do think a petty would be nice. Was initially thinking like a Takamura, would one of these be a better option?

I think the 150mm Takamura would be great. I think it will be less expensive and have better edge retention at the expense of some durability, without being terribly fragile.

 

[Jmast]

I've cut up quite a few chickens with one of these guys:
https://knifejapan.com/kawatsu-hamono-funayuki-bocho-120mm-aogami-2/
Great little knife that I find myself using quite often. You do need to be mindful of the edge around bone but it is fully capable of "normal" chicken butchery and deboning.

For spatchcocking I use poultry sheers.

Interesting recommendation. Whats the advantage of this type of shape compared to a smaller petty? Do you know any of other similar knives in a different steel? I'm not sure at this point in my journey I would want to double up on the same steel even in the size/shape is different

 

[SwampDonkey]

Interesting recommendation. Whats the advantage of this type of shape compared to a smaller petty? Do you know any of other similar knives in a different steel? I'm not sure at this point in my journey I would want to double up on the same steel even in the size/shape is different

Doubling up on steels like aogami or shirogami isn't a bad idea because the heat treatments from different makers can have them feel/act quite different, not to mention grind. The little Funayuki above will be better for board work due to extra height. Nice for small jobs like garlic or ginger, but robust enough for some more work.

This one is my favorite butcher knife replacement. It's thicker spined than a petty so much stiffer, and has a grind optimized for small butchering/trimming jobs. More meat behind the edge so it can stand up to knicking bones or slicing between joints without chipping. The convexity of the grind helps it slice through meat cleanly as well. It's narrow enough to slip between pork ribs pop the membrane and nimble for trimming those awkward bits on a butt or brisket. I also use it to break down birds. Despite all that, it doubles as a petty nicely, though still outclassed on vegetables by the Ashi or similar. The initial edge and steel are both excellent.

https://knifejapan.com/okahide-hamono-sabaki-bocho-140mm/

 

[Jmast]

Doubling up on steels like aogami or shirogami isn't a bad idea because the heat treatments from different makers can have them feel/act quite different, not to mention grind. The little Funayuki above will be better for board work due to extra height. Nice for small jobs like garlic or ginger, but robust enough for some more work.

This one is my favorite butcher knife replacement. It's thicker spined than a petty so much stiffer, and has a grind optimized for small butchering/trimming jobs. More meat behind the edge so it can stand up to knicking bones or slicing between joints without chipping. The convexity of the grind helps it slice through meat cleanly as well. It's narrow enough to slip between pork ribs pop the membrane and nimble for trimming those awkward bits on a butt or brisket. I also use it to break down brisket. Despite all that, it doubles as a petty nicely, though still outclassed on vegetables by the Ashi or similar. The initial edge and steel are both excellent.

https://knifejapan.com/okahide-hamono-sabaki-bocho-140mm/

Thats great to know about the steels, thank you!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yep, @SwampDonkey pretty much covered it. I use that guy sort of like a mini santoku and quick task knife. I reach for it a lot in the morning when I'm putting my lunch together, when the grand daughter is over and wants some snacks, etc. Slimer petties will excel at other things so it's always a compromise.

I'd also say not to try to have all aspects different in every knife. If you see a knife that has some different characteristics that you like but is in a steel you already have, I don't think that should stop you.

 

[Cliff]

Agreed, I think steel should come last here, and there is no harm in multiples in, say, Blue 2, which is a terrific steel. To the extent it's a consideration, I like stainless and semi-stainless in shorter knives that see citrus. The "standard" petty is 150mm. Sakai knives like Ashi run short. I and many others prefer utility knives like these to be a little longer most of the time.

 

[Jmast]

Those two from knife japan would be quite different from anything I've used or even really seen. Is the sabaki-bocho a single bevel knife? It looks like it might be in the photos but I'm not totally sure.