Knife (maker) recommendation

[Hanmak17]

LOCATION
USA

KNIFE TYPE

Custom

Bunka / Gyuto hybrid???

Right handed

Wa or Yo

190-200mm

Prefer to keep it under $1K, looking for "that" knife.

KNIFE USE
Home use

Mostly veggies and some bigger thicker stuff (Yams, squash etc.)

Would replace my venerable Watanabe Pro Nakiri 185mm

Pinch grip

chop and push chop with this knife

Looking to improve on a number of things see below:

Want a knife with a tip (ie: bunka), larger both in length and height, thin like the Wat but better steel/heat treat (I know your thinking HUH???).

Let me splain woocy. I am a big fan of the Wat, but have found over time I'm not totally enamored with his blue 2 steel. While it gets very sharp, is easy to sharpen, it is somewhat soft in an odd way. I have found that the edge tends to bend or deflect from harder surfaces. Nothing significant and no chipping but little micro bends that I spend a lot of time straightening. I use a hinoki board so it is not the board and I am very careful to clean my veggies before cutting. I'm also careful with the knife. I know this because I do not have any of these issues with any of my other knives.

I am looking for a harder more durable steel / heat treat and love the Nashiji/san mai look of many of the western makers.

So considering the myriad of makers out there, I am curious who you would recommend turning to for such a knife. FYI, I am considering Raquin and or Antzenberger (love his finishes). No flakes and money is not a problem. Only the best!

Examples: (note I want something taller and likely longer then either of these with a bit less belly and lower tip

 

[DitmasPork]

"No budget" ... will get you recommendations all over the map. Maybe go custom.

Can you articulate a bit more on what you mean by ""that" knife"?
https://www.cartercutlery.com/knives/knives/master-smith/8-5-master-smith-110-high-grade-gyuto/

 

[DitmasPork]

If you budget was in the $350+ range, these were talked about in another thread. Might be worth a look for you.

https://www.mtckitchen.com/sukenari-hap40-high-speed-steel-gyuto-knife-210mm-8-2/

 

[Elliot]

LOCATION
USA

KNIFE TYPE
Bunka / Gyuto hybrid???

Right handed

Wa or Yo

190-200mm

No budget per say, looking for "that" knife

KNIFE USE
Home use

Mostly veggies and some bigger thicker stuff (Yams, squash etc.)

Would replace my venerable Watanabe Pro Nakiri 185mm

Pinch grip

chop and push chop with this knife

Looking to improve on a number of things see below:

Want a knife with a tip (ie: bunka), larger both in length and height, thin like the Wat but better steel/heat treat (I know your thinking HUH???).

Let me splain woocy. I am a big fan of the Wat, but have found over time I'm not totally enamored with his blue 2 steel. While it gets very sharp, is easy to sharpen, it is somewhat soft in an odd way. I have found that the edge tends to bend or deflect from harder surfaces. Nothing significant and no chipping but little micro bends that I spend a lot of time straightening. I use a hinoki board so it is not the board and I am very careful to clean my veggies before cutting. I'm also careful with the knife. I know this because I do not have any of these issues with any of my other knives.

I am looking for a harder more durable steel / heat treat and love the Nashiji/san mai look of many of the western makers.

So considering the myriad of makers out there, I am curious who you would recommend turning to for such a knife. FYI, I am considering Raquin and or Antzenberger (love his finishes). No flakes and money is not a problem. Only the best!

So bring it on....

Raquin is NEVER a bad idea. I don't think his books are open, but he is definitely worth reaching out to. Also a touch hard to come by, but I would also look into Dalman and Tansu, Halcyon and Comet.

 

[Hanmak17]

"No budget" ... will get you recommendations all over the map. Maybe go custom.

Can you articulate a bit more on what you mean by ""that" knife"?
https://www.cartercutlery.com/knives/knives/master-smith/8-5-master-smith-110-high-grade-gyuto/

I'll edit that. I'd like to keep it under $1k and yes custom, thus the "maker" in the title. Really focused on quality of steel & heat treat > grind > asthetics. This thing is going to get a lot of work.

 

[DitmasPork]

Think what you want is quite specific, the Kochi is not a short knife.

With your healthy budget, you should really consider getting a custom done by one of the talented knife makers on the forum, like Marko Tsourkan, or contact Shehan Prull (http://www.shihanfineknives.com/stainless) see if he'll do a custom size to your liking, etc.

 

[HRC_64]

I think what you are looking for is something called "edge stability", not better heat treatment (per-se).

Edge Stability is part the alloy, part the HRC/hardness, and part the actual geometry of how you sharpened it.

Maybe Larrin or somebody can chime in and definitively talk about this,
but the first step with your exisiting knive is to discuss the sharpening angles/etc.

There is another thread where people are saying watanabe has the best HT of any steel in japan.
(although, this is debated), it is hard and it is blue steel...which is reasonaly stable

But frankly OOTB shigefusa have complaints that the edge is weak,
and so does OOTB Watanable share this complaint fo weak edge
...and so does Takamura R2, etc...

but thats OOTB geometry/zero grinds they ship with,
and isn't really representative of the steel or HT.

The typical 1st step remedy is more conservative angles, micro-bevels,
adding some edge-convexity, etc.

 

[Barmoley]

Not to be the one to suggest not buying a new knife, that would go against everything I believe in, but have you tried slightly increasing your sharpening angle? It is possible that the angle is just too acute.

To stay on topic how about something like this http://www.halcyonforge.com/store/210x61-kasumi-bunka

I don't know if you can custom order, but worth asking and explaining what you are looking for. You need a very hard edge to not deform, but you don't want it to chip either.

 

[Hanmak17]

Not to be the one to suggest not buying a new knife, that would go against everything I believe in, but have you tried slightly increasing your sharpening angle? It is possible that the angle just too acute? You need a very hard edge to not deform, but you don't want it to chip either.

I suspect you are correct, though i'm not quite sure how I would adjust. I use the knife for plowing through masses of veggies. Its not precision work. I tend to chop a lot for these tasks. I can push chop if I'm in less of a hurry but then I would just use one of my gyuto's.

The blade is always sharp, sometimes it buries in the board. I've considered that maybe the edge is deflecting on the soft board.

I love the height/length of the Watanabe pro as it really makes it easy to get the job done quickly. Problem is lack of tip and this damn tendancy to bend ever so slightly in small spots. For onions and the like, would be so much more convenient if the knife had a tip.

 

[Hanmak17]

To stay on topic how about something like this http://www.halcyonforge.com/store/210x61-kasumi-bunka.

That is exactly what I'm talking about!

 

[HRC_64]

That would be a good choice to explore OP, that steel is reportedly cabable of taking fine edges
which sounds like one of your objective in addition to the shape.

 

[Hanmak17]

I think what you are looking for is something called "edge stability", not better heat treatment (per-se).

Edge Stability is part the alloy, part the HRC/hardness, and part the actual geometry of how you sharpened it.

Maybe Larrin or somebody can chime in and definitively talk about this,
but the first step with your exisiting knive is to discuss the sharpening angles/etc.

There is another thread where people are saying watanabe has the best HT of any steel in japan.
(although, this is debated), it is hard and it is blue steel...which is reasonaly stable

But frankly OOTB shigefusa have complaints that the edge is weak,
and so does OOTB Watanable share this complaint fo weak edge
...and so does Takamura R2, etc...

but thats OOTB geometry/zero grinds they ship with,
and isn't really representative of the steel or HT.

The typical 1st step remedy is more conservative angles, micro-bevels,
adding some edge-convexity, etc.

So I've spent some time playing around with the edge angle and convexity behind the edge. Its pretty good now, with a slightly less aggressive edge then it came with (i'd guess between 13-16'). I've also been careful not to thin to much behind the edge. Problem is that it is a very thin edge to begin with. I'm a pretty perceptive guy with a fairly high sensitivity level feel wise. I like this steel and agree his heat treat is superior but in general I am starting to realize I'm more of white paper guy then blue. It is a different feel. Hard to describe. My sense is that the blue 2 he uses is more likely to deform then chip. The more knives I use, the more I realize its not my taste. Great knife, not going to get rid of it, but wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[Hanmak17]

That would be a good choice to explore OP, that steel is reportedly cabable of taking fine edges
which sounds like one of your objective in addition to the shape.

Yes I own this knife: http://www.catchesidecutlery.com/st...nyaki_sc125_Gyuto_-_High_grade_Wa_handle.html

It is without a doubt the best knife I have ever used in terms of steel quality. It is also surprisingly durable edge. Only touch ups so far.

 

[valgard]

I would suggest halcyonforge.

 

[valgard]

I think Watanabe nakiri is just silly thin at the edge

 

[Nemo]

I think Watanabe nakiri is just silly thin at the edge

I'm not sure whether you are saying that like its a problem or like it's a bonus.

 

[valgard]

I'm not sure whether you are saying that like its a problem or like it's a bonus.

can go either way. For the record the Watanabe 180 nakiri I have is the best cutter I have tried.

 

[Barmoley]

Yes I own this knife: http://www.catchesidecutlery.com/st...nyaki_sc125_Gyuto_-_High_grade_Wa_handle.html

It is without a doubt the best knife I have ever used in terms of steel quality. It is also surprisingly durable edge. Only touch ups so far.

That is a beautiful knife. I've looked at it many times and it is just amazing looking. Will was another maker I was going to suggest, specifically his 1.2442, as he heat treats it hard and makes a point of heat treating so it doesn't deform. I have never seen him make a bunka though and it sounded like that is what you want. Plus he is a true artist with everything that comes with it. In any case it looks like you already have one of his blades and one of the most beautiful at that. It is not 1.2442, but it sounds like you might prefer simpler carbon anyway.

 

[Nemo]

can go either way. For the record the Watanabe 180 nakiri I have is the best cutter I have tried.

Exactly this.

Crazy thin behind the edge cuts well BUT you need to be a little more careful with the edge.

I suspect that the geometry rather than the steel is what is responsible for the OP's corrugated edge problem.

 

[Hanmak17]

Crazy thin behind the edge cuts well BUT you need to be a little more careful with the edge. I suspect that the geometry rather than the steel is what is responsible for the OP's corrugated edge problem.

Wow guy's this turned into two threads in one, which in this case I really appreciate. I spent some time measuring the edge and you guy's are spot on. This is by far the thinnest edge of any of my knives, with the exception of a zero edge BNIB Toyama (go figure). Hadn't really noticed before but there is not much behind the edge to support it. Obviously chopping is out of the question for this blade.

Back on topic I spent a few hours chatting with Evan Antzenberger today. What a gentleman! Despite a significant language barrier he patiently walked me through some design decisions ultimately landing on a variation of the knife below. While I haven't used one of his knives before, I've received a lot of great feed back from several people regarding Evans work, specifically @Sebastian Chrstiansson (thank you sir!)

The target specs are as follows:

125sc monosteel
Nashiji finish with a high bevel to expose the hamon
D: 200 x 62 mm
Fairly thick spine from handle with a lot of taper to the nose
A little more girth then the Watanabe from spine to edge (thanks Guy's for the secondary dialog regarding edge thickness!!)
High bevel with just a touch of convexity
Shallow belly as shown below

And to top it off, going to finally get to use some of the western Manzanita burl I collected on Mt St. Helena after the Tubbs fire in Napa last year (shown below) for handle. Very stoked about this.

 

[refcast]

The only comment is I had a custom kiritsuke tip petty, and the maker ended up deciding to make the spine of the tip in a curved shape, just a tad more than you have. I found it helps me 'locate' where the tip is better. Plus you get a little bit of a more nimble tip.

 

[Nemo]

Wow guy's this turned into two threads in one, which in this case I really appreciate. I spent some time measuring the edge and you guy's are spot on. This is by far the thinnest edge of any of my knives, with the exception of a zero edge BNIB Toyama (go figure). Hadn't really noticed before but there is not much behind the edge to support it. Obviously chopping is out of the question for this blade.

Back on topic I spent a few hours chatting with Evan Antzenberger today. What a gentleman!

Guy was responding to specific concerns about your existing knife which you raised in your thread.

There is no problem chopping with a knife like this, although you may not want to bang it into the board as hard as you can. Indeed this type of geometry is ideal for chopping. The thing that will cause the most problem is sideways (lateral) force on the edge. This could be from scraping food with the edge (flip it over and use the spine instead), rock-chopping or walk-chopping. The edge is also vulnerable when cutting tall, hard food (e.g.: pumpkin skin), especially if the technique is not great (the knife is twisted slightly in the cut).

I'm not familiar with Evan's work but I am glad that you have found a knifemaker that you are developing a good relationship with. This is one of the joys of commissioning a custom knife.

 

[Hanmak17]

Guy was responding to specific concerns about your existing knife which you raised in your thread.

There is no problem chopping with a knife like this, although you may not want to bang it into the board as hard as you can

Yes thank you I understood. As I said I appreciate that you guys expounded on my entire post.

 

[valgard]

Wow guy's this turned into two threads in one, which in this case I really appreciate. I spent some time measuring the edge and you guy's are spot on. This is by far the thinnest edge of any of my knives, with the exception of a zero edge BNIB Toyama (go figure). Hadn't really noticed before but there is not much behind the edge to support it. Obviously chopping is out of the question for this blade.

Back on topic I spent a few hours chatting with Evan Antzenberger today. What a gentleman! Despite a significant language barrier he patiently walked me through some design decisions ultimately landing on a variation of the knife below. While I haven't used one of his knives before, I've received a lot of great feed back from several people regarding Evans work, specifically @Sebastian Chrstiansson (thank you sir!)

The target specs are as follows:

125sc monosteel
Nashiji finish with a high bevel to expose the hamon
D: 200 x 62 mm
Fairly thick spine from handle with a lot of taper to the nose
A little more girth then the Watanabe from spine to edge (thanks Guy's for the secondary dialog regarding edge thickness!!)
High bevel with just a touch of convexity
Shallow belly as shown below

And to top it off, going to finally get to use some of the western Manzanita burl I collected on Mt St. Helena after the Tubbs fire in Napa last year (shown below) for handle. Very stoked about this.

View attachment 48013

View attachment 48015

Evan's work looks amazing. Sebastian can't stop pushing it! And your manzanita burl looks good as always.