Laser-ish gyuto

[jamiewakeham]

Looking for recommendations for a laser at a sensible price!

LOCATION - UK

KNIFE TYPE - gyuto

Right handed

Japanese handle

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

I think probably 240, but I'll consider 210 too

Do you require a stainless knife?
Not necessarily

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
£200 / $250

KNIFE USE:
home environment

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for:
slicing meat, poultry, trimming meat

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
None. This is to complement existing knives

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Trying to move from my habitual hammer grip to pinch grip; it feels much more natural on my J knives

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
For this knife, push and slice

If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have:
Lightweight, well balanced laser. Not too fussed about edge retention, and doesn't need to be very tough; I have workhorses.

Synthetic cutting boards

Novice sharpener, getting better all the time. Very much appreciating the ease of sharpening that paper steel provides.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS:

I've now added an Amakuni nakiri (165mm, Aogami 2) and a Tsunehisa santoku (170mm, Aogami Super) to my stainless Sabatiers. The nakiri is lovely with vegetables, and the santoku is a great all rounder - but it is quite a workhorse grind. Sooner or later I will get round to thinning it a little to try to improve this, but what I'd really like to add is a laser gyuto. Something that can dice boneless meat very accurately and with minimal effort.

So it can be reasonably delicate; for any tough tasks I'll be reaching for the santoku, or one of the much abused sabs. And reactive steel is fine; I'm now totally used to taking care of my carbon knives. Vaguely interested in trying Shirogami 2? Or SKD?

I had thought I'd favour a shorter gyuto, and therefore thought 180 or 210, but actually I'm realising that the forward pinch grip makes everything feel that bit shorter, and probably 240mm is about right. I certainly value lightness, so a laser-ish grind would help there too.

I keep thinking about a Yoshikane... but I also see that they keep getting described as not quite a true laser. So I guess one question is, if you want to try the full laser experience, would a Yoshikane leave you thinking you'd missed out a little?

Ideally this would be sub £200. God only knows what customs duty I might get hit with post brexit. I'm reasonably sure that HMRC are just using random number generators when calculating import taxes.

 

[Jovidah]

First thoughts:
-You ask for a laser... a knife most of us here unstand to be a knife with a rather thin-behind-the-edge geometry that excells in dense ingredients, yet you say you intend to use the knife mostly for meat, a task where such geometry offers little benefit.

-In that sense a lser could be a nice addition to your lineup, but mostly for denser products like root vegetables, apples, that sort of thing. For meat they work fine but they don't offer any particular benefits.

-If the task is meat then your assumption is correct that reactivity isn't something to worry about... That's a non-issue with meats.

-If you're going for a gyuto anyway though I would keep in mind that most of us end up using them for just about anything, and you might want to keep that in mind when selecting something.

-Personally I think that if the goal is meat what's most suitable depends on the job. Specifically for trimming / filleting I've always gravitated towards longer petties (or an actual filleting knife), for cutting larger chunks or steaks IMO a heavier stiffer longer knife usually gets preference for me (regardless of whether that's a suji or a gyuto).

-Short gyuto is basically the worst of both worlds for meat jobs. Too tall to be nimble enoguh to make it good at trimming, too short to make it good at slicing.

-Admittedly, I was never particularly enchanted by my Yoshikane, but I never thought it was a particularly good knife for meats... where it really shines is in the actual hard products you normally want a laser for; the thin grind doesn't wedge.

Long story make up your mind: do you want a laser, do you want a meat trimmer, or do you want a meat slicer?

 

[jamiewakeham]

Thanks - that does help to clarify my thinking quite a bit. Each time a new knife comes in I'm having a bit of a rethink about which tool is best for which job, and it's not always what I expected.

I think my bottom line is that I want to try a laser gyuto, to see what the fuss is about; perhaps I will find that it's actually more for the harder produce where its resistance to wedging is useful. My nakiri is nice enough but it does wedge a little in carrots and the like.

Maybe there's also a place for a sujihiki, later down the line...

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Nothing at all wrong with wanting a laser but something to consider is the typically thin spine. It can get uncomfortable after a while, especially if cutting denser stuff.

What it sounds like to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you want that really sweet slicing experience and are associating that with lasers. Yeah? Totally fine if I'm wrong but I'm going to proceed as if that is right.

If that is the case and given your newness to both Japanese knives and sharpening, I think it's pretty damn hard to beat a Munetoshi.

Munetoshi Kurouchi Gyuto 240mm

Selected Japanese natural sharpening stones Toishi, Handmade by Best Blade smiths Japanese Knives, Razors and Tools

www.japanesenaturalstones.com

These knives are made in Sanjo and the Sanjo style is typically considered to have thicker spines but thin, slicey edges. Munetoshi's are great values and one of the last longer gyutos I still have. Our resident chef @M1k3 is also a fan and has put one through the paces of a pro kitchen.

This would be a great do-all knife for you get started on. Great cutting feel and they sharpen up nicely.

Now, that said, if you're really just wanting to focus on meats then you might want to go a different direction. A sujihiki and boning knife might be the fit. And you don't have to spend a lot on either. The boning knife can be standard western fare like Dexter, F. Dick, etc. This will handle your trimming too.

The sujihiki aka suji handles the slicing. I love my suji and use it often from filleting chicken breasts to slicing roasts (raw and cooked) and portioning pizza. Sakai Kikumori and one of the Hitohira lines are common and good values.

EDIT: Posted at the same time as the above so didn't see what you wrote.

 

[jamiewakeham]

What it sounds like to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you want that really sweet slicing experience and are associating that with lasers. Yeah? Totally fine if I'm wrong but I'm going to proceed as if that is right.

Yep, I think that's right - it is the effortless slicing I want to have a go with! So, perhaps ignore the reference to meat specifically. A suji can come later. Ideal = N+1, right?

I'll take a look at the Munetoshi line; thanks for that. Am I right in thinking that they have some similarity to Yoshikane in that they are thicker at the spine but thin BTE?

 

[Jovidah]

If you ignore all the other stuff and just 'want to try a laser on the cheap' you pretty much end up with Takamura. Even the SG2 model is usually <200 euros, only problem really is finding it in stock.

Meesterslijpers still has the VG10 model in stock, but normally they also have the chromax (semistainless) and SG2 model. No clue when the latter 2 will be in stock again though.

Takamura VG-10 Chef's knife 21 cm Meesterslijpers | Knivesworld

Handmade Japanese Chef's Knife by Takamura - Thin and Razor Sharp - Free Engraved with Name. Extra Sharp Priced

www.meesterslijpers.nl

Not a perfect knife but when it comes to performance in dence product it's hard to beat at that price.

Ashi Ginga is another good option (through bluewayjapan) but will probably be a hundred euros more after shipping & tax. I find them more comfortable to use though, and at least it comes in a wa-handle version. But just like the Takamura, hard to find in stock... need some patience for that.

Yoshikane is probably a bit more expensive than the Ginga and is a bit of an odd one, since they are a bit thicker in the spine, but are still really thin behind the edge. So they are somewhat laser-ish in some ways, yet in others they are not. Whether you'd prefer it over the Ashi or not is hard to say; depends a lot on your own personal preferences.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yep, I think that's right - it is the effortless slicing I want to have a go with! So, perhaps ignore the reference to meat specifically. A suji can come later. Ideal = N+1, right?

I'll take a look at the Munetoshi line; thanks for that. Am I right in thinking that they have some similarity to Yoshikane in that they are thicker at the spine but thin BTE?

Something to ponder, because clearly you don't have enough to ponder already , a suji and a nakiri (or santoku) can take you a long way. That's more or less my daily setup.

Yes Munetoshi and Yoshikane are similar as they are both Sanjo knives. Toyama, Watanabe (likely made by Toyoma), and Shindo are other common Sanjo brands. Yoshikane is flatter profiled and thinner edged than Munetoshi. I've owned both and they are both great but I prefer Munetoshi.

 

[Jovidah]

Are Munetoshi and Yoshi really that similar? The profile alone is widely different, Munetoshi is a lot taller... Yoshi a lot flatter. And from what I've seen the grinds are very different - though I never had a Munetoshi in hand. My Yoshi actually had a hollow grind.

On suji's I'd actually go the other way. For slicing you want something long but I never particularly noticed any major benefits from the lower blade height unless you're really cutting something super thin. But if you're just slicing or carving steaks I never really found any problems in using any of my gyutos instead. So unless you have any particular plans to use it specifically for filleting or slicing really thin meats or fish I'd always lean towards getting a gyuto instead.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Are Munetoshi and Yoshi really that similar? The profile alone is widely different, Munetoshi is a lot taller... Yoshi a lot flatter. And from what I've seen the grinds are very different - though I never had a Munetoshi in hand. My Yoshi actually had a hollow grind.

On suji's I'd actually go the other way. For slicing you want something long but I never particularly noticed any major benefits from the lower blade height unless you're really cutting something super thin. But if you're just slicing or carving steaks I never really found any problems in using any of my gyutos instead. So unless you have any particular plans to use it specifically for filleting or slicing really thin meats or fish I'd always lean towards getting a gyuto instead.

I think you're diving way deeper than our OP friend is prepared to follow. Yes Munetohi and Yoshikane have significant differences. So do all the knives listed. But I was talking in broad strokes about the shared thick-spine-thin-edge approach of Sanjo style knives.

 

[Jovidah]

I really think just throwing all Sanjo blades together as if they're all the same is a gross oversimplification. Yes they share some traits but they can be very different in other regards. My Yoshi and my Mazaki are both Sanjo knives, both have a fat spine above the heel, relatively thin grind behind the edge and both end up with a tin tip. But that's pretty much were the similarities ended; they always felt very different in actual usage.

Another question for OP... you mention well-balanced... but what do you mean by that (or better to ask: what is your preference)? Do you want more forward-heavy or do you want something more neutral. Or are you one of those sadomasochists who prefers rear-heavy?

 

[jacobwilder5]

Without going to deep I’ll just +1 to Ashi Ginga. True example of a laser and an excellent all around knife.

 

[flow_the_pro]

I have a 240 Munetoshi, from KnivesandTools not the JNS version, and it definitely wedges carrots, I use it as my beater Knife. So unless the JNS version is thinner, I would not recommend it for "laserish".

 

[SwampDonkey]

Jovidah is spot on about grinds. Lasers are great for veggies, I don't like them for meat. The Munetoshi 240 is easily one of my favorite knives and its thicker convex grind excels when cutting meat and softer veggies. It's decent in hard, dense stuff like sweet potatoes or butternut but that's generally where thinner knives shine, if they don't get stiction issues. Mine isn't particularly wedgey, there's some variance from knife to knife in grind.

Yoshikane is only similar to the Munetoshi in that they're broadly Sanjo style with comfortably thick spines and distal taper. My Yoshi was not great in dense stuff bigger than a carrot though. Too much stiction.

@HumbleHomeCook I hate to be pedantic but I must quibble; Saint Shindo is based out of Tosa, not Sanjo.

 

[Delat]

People on this forum have different definitions of “laser”. For some, it’s not a laser if the any of the spine is >2mm. For others, a thicker spine out of the handle is fine as long as it tapers, the grind is very thin, and it cuts just the same.

So…. the Yoshi falls into the latter camp. The spine is a bit thicker out of the handle, but for me it cuts just as well as a “true laser” like a Shibata Koutetsu. The benefit is the Yoshi is more comfortable to hold and has a bit more weight so it doesn’t feel like a toy.

Anyway, as mentioned above Shibata makes true lasers, although might be a touch above your price range. Takamura is another classic, as is Ashi. I have no experience with them, but I believe Kyohei Shindo is also popular as a budget laser. My Wakui nakiri also cuts like a laser, but I think price has shot up on Wakui in the past year.

 

[Jovidah]

Yoshikane is only similar to the Munetoshi in that they're broadly Sanjo style with comfortably thick spines and distal taper. My Yoshi was not great in dense stuff bigger than a carrot though. Too much stiction.

Similar here; it didn't really release any better than your average laser... I think the 'struggling with taller stuff' is a result of the grind. The hollow grind makes it really thin behind the edge, but at some point you get to the shinogi part and the thicker spine catches up to it.

So…. the Yoshi falls into the latter camp. The spine is a bit thicker out of the handle, but for me it cuts just as well as a “true laser” like a Shibata Koutetsu. The benefit is the Yoshi is more comfortable to hold and has a bit more weight so it doesn’t feel like a toy.

Anyway, as mentioned above Shibata makes true lasers, although might be a touch above your price range. Takamura is another classic, as is Ashi. I have no experience with them, but I believe Kyohei Shindo is also popular as a budget laser. My Wakui nakiri also cuts like a laser, but I think price has shot up on Wakui in the past year.

The feeling like a toy thing is IMO the main drawback of the Takamura. It just feels a bit... flimsy... even though that's not necessarily the case. I think it's a result of the thin grind + sanmai construction. Because my Ashis aren't a whole lot thicker yet they don't give me the flimsy toy-feeling at all. Neither did my lighter Robert Herder knives, which are also monosteel construction.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

...

@HumbleHomeCook I hate to be pedantic but I must quibble; Saint Shindo is based out of Tosa, not Sanjo.

Ah, you are correct, obviously. Tosa and Sanjo offerings can be so similar I sometimes forget.

 

[M1k3]

Just get a Ashi 210mm petty. Or 240mm Sujihiki. You'll still get to try a laser AND have a good meat knife.

Do note, Ashi wa handled are a little shorter in length than the western handled ones.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Kei Kobayashi SG2 gyuto. A very lasery laser that is pretty nice as an all-arounder, too.

 

[Cliff]

Of course, you need more than one! I love my Ginga 210 petty for trimming meat and small prep. The Munetoshi 240 is a wonderful all-around knife. I think it really helps if you are comfortable sharpening, and, ideally, thinning and refining bevels. My 240 needed some work to get where I like it, while the smaller 190 all-arounder was pretty perfect for me out of the box.

 

[jamiewakeham]

Thanks for all the replies - this has been a really useful learning exercise.

I think I need to try a laser. It might not do what I think it will, and I might not like it, but it needs to be done. I bought and then sold a Les Paul quite quickly, because you've just got to try a Les Paul once, right? I quickly retreated to my Fenders and PRS!

On the balance - all my sabs balance about 2cm into the handle, whereas both my japanese knives balance about 2cm into the blade. I greatly prefer the latter! The sabs now all feel weirdly handle heavy.

I have to confess that one of the reasons I started this thread was seeing SwampDonkey's Yoshikane in BST. However, I've just had an offer of a Yu Kurosaki 210 gyuto in SG2, and it's already on the right side of the crazy Brexit customs wall, so I might well give that a go... I understand that the concave grind is going to make thinning hard, but (assuming I keep it) it'll be a long long time until I need to thin it.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thanks for all the replies - this has been a really useful learning exercise.

I think I need to try a laser. It might not do what I think it will, and I might not like it, but it needs to be done. I bought and then sold a Les Paul quite quickly, because you've just got to try a Les Paul once, right? I quickly retreated to my Fenders and PRS!

On the balance - all my sabs balance about 2cm into the handle, whereas both my japanese knives balance about 2cm into the blade. I greatly prefer the latter! The sabs now all feel weirdly handle heavy.

I have to confess that one of the reasons I started this thread was seeing SwampDonkey's Yoshikane in BST. However, I've just had an offer of a Yu Kurosaki 210 gyuto in SG2, and it's already on the right side of the crazy Brexit customs wall, so I might well give that a go... I understand that the concave grind is going to make thinning hard, but (assuming I keep it) it'll be a long long time until I need to thin it.

Attaboy.

Yu Kurosaki makes a good knife and SG2 is good steel.

 

[jaydee]

At that budget, maybe with a tiny stretch, I would have suggested a custom knife by Michael Knot (Knot handcrafted).
I asked him to make a nakiri for me that is a good performer in dense vegetables but not too light and he delivered what is my favourite knife nowadays.
185x55mm at ~180g in 52100 steel with a convex grind.
I believe he doesn´t make "total lasers" (better ask yourself!) but I thought I throw it out there, also because you are in the UK already.
(and I believe this does cut better than a "total laser" that come with their own compromises)

 

[Delat]

Thanks for all the replies - this has been a really useful learning exercise.

I think I need to try a laser. It might not do what I think it will, and I might not like it, but it needs to be done. I bought and then sold a Les Paul quite quickly, because you've just got to try a Les Paul once, right? I quickly retreated to my Fenders and PRS!

On the balance - all my sabs balance about 2cm into the handle, whereas both my japanese knives balance about 2cm into the blade. I greatly prefer the latter! The sabs now all feel weirdly handle heavy.

I have to confess that one of the reasons I started this thread was seeing SwampDonkey's Yoshikane in BST. However, I've just had an offer of a Yu Kurosaki 210 gyuto in SG2, and it's already on the right side of the crazy Brexit customs wall, so I might well give that a go... I understand that the concave grind is going to make thinning hard, but (assuming I keep it) it'll be a long long time until I need to thin it.

Solid choice, I had a Kurosaki Fujin in AS that I really liked. I sold it because of overlap with my Yoshikane but really do miss it.

 

[jamiewakeham]

The Kurosaki is on its way

I'm sure I will end up getting a custom at some point, and Knot Handcrafted is actually pretty nearby - but I think I need to get a lot further down the road before I know enough about my own preferences to be able to spec a custom build. I'd far rather buy and sell at used prices for now, so that I'm not losing too much each time I make a change. It took me 20 years to feel ready to have a handmade telecaster put together!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The Kurosaki is on its way

I'm sure I will end up getting a custom at some point, and Knot Handcrafted is actually pretty nearby - but I think I need to get a lot further down the road before I know enough about my own preferences to be able to spec a custom build. I'd far rather buy and sell at used prices for now, so that I'm not losing too much each time I make a change. It took me 20 years to feel ready to have a handmade telecaster put together!

Be sure to report back after you've used it a bit.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I think I need to get a lot further down the road before I know enough about my own preferences to be able to spec a custom build.

It took me like 20 knives to really dial in what I did/didn't like and how different measurements actually translated to different parts of the knife in use, to my own tastes, and start doing customs. I never really liked lasers but tried my fair share, then midweights, then midweights with fat spines and laser edges, then crept more and more convex workhorse in taste. Enjoy the journey!