I've only had them drop down to a 1K grit equivalent after a course lapping, where the softs I've used sit right about here.
Looking for a hard 1000 grit stone.
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I love Shapton in general but will joint the chorus that struggles with the 4K. I don't really know why. Mine is the HC, if that makes a difference. It falls betwixt and between for me. Maybe the issue is residual burr, but it seems weird to have that as the issue with a 4K and not a 2K
From time in razors, I'll say the shapton pros are very hard. The 1500 finishes closer to a "true" 1k e.g. Naniwa. It's a pain to flatten, but stays that way, which is important for razors. Wouldn't give a really toothy edge I think, but meets the "hard" criteria.
FSK or NSK
Personally, and this maybe just me, I feel that the Shapton Pro 12K produces and very nice 7,000 grit edge.
On the topic of hard 1K stones, I very much like my Sigma Power ceramic hard 1K. Super thirsty, but FAST.
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I can confirm, as the edges are very similar to what I get with a Junpaku 8k. As for evaluating the exact grit, it isn't easy as it contains different sized abrasives. Both stones deliver a refined bite.
Naniwa Professional 800 or 1000 grit. You can find them at 50$ ea on some EU sites.
I have the 800 and probably will last me a lifetime. It doesn't dish on carbon knives and it is really fast sharpening for bringing out that crisp burr.
I have the 800 and probably will last me a lifetime. It doesn't dish on carbon knives and it is really fast sharpening for bringing out that crisp burr.
Chasingsharpness
Senior Member
Shapton glass and shapton pro are two hard stones within that price range. If you found the Naniwa chosera 800 soft, suehiro Debado 1k will be simmilar.
FSK and NSK are hard but much more expensive.
FSK and NSK are hard but much more expensive.
JustAnotherJoe
Hobbyist
While not a waterstone, the sintered alumina stones like idahone/spyderco stones may interest you. If you lap and prepare their surfaces like one would a hard arkansas stone they can finish in a wide range depending on the grit used. Unlike arks, they perform well on a wide variety of steels.
I really think we should have a dedicated post on these stones as they are such an odd ball as sharpening stones go.
I really think we should have a dedicated post on these stones as they are such an odd ball as sharpening stones go.
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I should break mine out from their long slumber. Problem is, they are really, really slow. Good for a tuneup from almost sharp to really sharp, yes.
JustAnotherJoe
Hobbyist
I have to ask, have you resurfaced it or is that the factory surface? I found the "as molded" surface to be slow too.
I did a little speed test a while ago: the swarf on the stone from 2 passes per side medium pressure, window cleaner, tojiro vg10. This side was finished on 90grit SiC and is plenty fast, maybe faster than a naniwa pro 800, but I haven't devised of a good/easy way to test that.
You know, it might be fun to do a pass around with one of these stones, as I have a spare...
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Good point. No, I have not done any resurfacing. I can well imagine that that would change the speed considerably. Lore is that the Fine and Medium are the same stone, with different surface prep.
have you considered getting RockStar 1k?
Shapton seems the obvious way to go, both the Pro and Glass 1k are very good stones and extremely fast. Though both play a touch under their grit rating. I marginally prefer the Pro and use it all day every day at work ahead of the Glass, but would be more than happy with either.
Some comparisons here from myself, and @Steampunk whose knowledge of and opinions about stones is always impressive and spot-on imo:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/shapton-pro-1k.64259/post-984848
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/shapton-pro-1k.64259/post-984081
Another option if you wanted really, truly hard would be a Fine India, which is way harder than any Japanese stone and probably finishes around the same level as the two Shaptons. I once tried to break a Fine India in two, it took me about half an hour. And I was using an axe.
Some comparisons here from myself, and @Steampunk whose knowledge of and opinions about stones is always impressive and spot-on imo:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/shapton-pro-1k.64259/post-984848
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/shapton-pro-1k.64259/post-984081
Another option if you wanted really, truly hard would be a Fine India, which is way harder than any Japanese stone and probably finishes around the same level as the two Shaptons. I once tried to break a Fine India in two, it took me about half an hour. And I was using an axe.
Chasingsharpness
Senior Member
Norton says fine India is ~400 grit. It does indeed load up and is a pain to clean. I've been using cheap AliExpress diamond plates to give it a quick lap here and there between full flattening/lapping on a SiC plate, I've found that works quite well.
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How is it best done? Almost every time I think of reaching for mine, I think about the loading, resolve to learn how to resolve it, and grab something else instead.
Fine India is rated about 400, but that's ANSI/CAMI, which isn't the same as JIS, particularly for lower grit stones the difference is quite significant. For edge sharpening; the hardness of the stone comes into it too, so the end result is that a Fine India probably finishes around 800 JIS equivalent, about the same level as the two Shapton 1Ks.
I've not found loading to be a particular problem with the Fine India, but I use oil and maybe that helps(?) A little scrub down with a worn atoma should sort it I'd have thought...
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Ok. I've finally come around to considering picking up a hard stone again. I just wanted options before. But i am about to buy one now.
So far the serious considerations i am making are
The naniwa hibiki 1000
Maybe the suehiro debado. But there are different versions and idk anything about them so I'm a bit wary.
The shapton rockstar. I will have to double check price.
I might look into the sigma ceramic, i have no idea how hard that is.
Someone bringing up the spyderco stones, that is a good idea actually. I might see if they still sell the medium or whatever they call it. That could be a good choice. I have never tried theirs, but have seen them for years.
In this case diamond aren't what i am interested in since ive seen them mentioned. This is for finishing non vanadium carbide steels. I already have a new 1k diamond stone in mind.
So far the serious considerations i am making are
The naniwa hibiki 1000
Maybe the suehiro debado. But there are different versions and idk anything about them so I'm a bit wary.
The shapton rockstar. I will have to double check price.
I might look into the sigma ceramic, i have no idea how hard that is.
Someone bringing up the spyderco stones, that is a good idea actually. I might see if they still sell the medium or whatever they call it. That could be a good choice. I have never tried theirs, but have seen them for years.
In this case diamond aren't what i am interested in since ive seen them mentioned. This is for finishing non vanadium carbide steels. I already have a new 1k diamond stone in mind.
If his shop is still open, this is a really hard 1k stone. It's not the same as the Power Select II.
https://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index...oducts_id=18&zenid=bbruce5t28vq0m7gq09iuclvu4
https://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index...oducts_id=18&zenid=bbruce5t28vq0m7gq09iuclvu4
Chasingsharpness
Senior Member
I would class the suehiro debado 1k as quite soft or at least medium. Never tried a rockstar but shapton glass is hard and they are supposed to be very simillar. I have heard that sigma stone is quite hard too but never tried it myself.
I’d say forget the Debado and look at the coarse Gokumyo, 240 or 300. King Deluxe 300/400L are basically mid-grit as well.
There are a few different types of debado. Which is kind of why i dont want to buy one. Because idk if one is harder than another.
Idk i might just go hibiki. It will for sure be very hard. So its a safe bet.
The spyderco's are tempting too.
The spyderco's are tempting too.
Uncle Danny
Professional kung-fu sound maker
I’m not going to read the whole thread, but you can pull a nice edge with an Naniwa P-308 and it is a pretty hard stone
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JustAnotherJoe
Hobbyist
I have a spare "b grade" fine that Ive done a bit of lapping/resurfacing too that your welcome to try.
They are quirky stones that share more in common with Arks than with bonded abradives.
sunn
Knife Spa Berlin
The hibiki is my favourite stone right now. Be sure to soak it at least 15 Minutes. Great edges on softer steels and good bridge stone to 3k.
Works well to check flatness of the bevel as well.
I just ordered a set of Shapton Kuromaku stones. I purchased a 4-stone set of #1000, #5000, #8000, and #12000, to this I added a #2000. I don't know what use I will have for the #12000 but it was cheaper to get this set than the first 3 stones by themselves.
