Mandatory Introductory Post

[DavidScubadiver]

Greetings knife enthusiasts, aficionados and collectors! I am none of these things, though I do own a knife block full of what I believe to be authentic martha stewart knives which, after more than a decade are in need of sharpening. So I bought some sharpening stones, scratched up my knives pretty badly and am ready to acquire a Japanese super blue stainless clad nakiri knife. I own a carbon steel wok and a carbon steel crepe pan, so I am not afraid of oxidation, though I certainly don't need a knife that needs to be wiped down before I've finished slicing an onion or preparing my meal.

I lack skills with the water whetting stones, but have a bunch of knives to practice on so hopefully, by the time my yet-to-be-acquired knife needs sharpening, I will have those skills appropriately honed. (smirk).

As I am not supposed to post links due to spam filters BUT this first post is going to be looked at by a moderator anyway.... I am going to take a stab (ugh) at posting links to the two knives I am looking at and hoping that I can get approved as a member AND get an opinion or two from forum members as to whether I should go with the one or the other. I know a lot of people suggest the wantanabe pro though I'm not sure I want such a large knife.

Anywho, what I am looking at arethe Yoshihiro Kurouchi Super Blue Steel Stainless Clad Nakiri Vegetable Chef Knife (6.5'' (165mm) versus the Takayuki Iwai Aogami Super Clad Kurouchi RS Japanese Chefs NakiriVegetable 165mm.

Thoughts and prayers only please!

 

[blokey]

Welcome, any specific reason for blue super tho? For the price I'd get a Nihei Nihei SLD Nashiji Nakiri 165mm, or just go cheaper for a Uraku Gesshin Uraku 165mm SKD Nakiri

 

[daveb]

Welcome. I personally found a 165 nakiri adequate but a little short for home use. Preferred a 180 (Wat Pro of course). For a bunch of prep / pro use, the 180 is the mother.

Can't speak to either of your cited knives (cept I would not buy a knife off Amazon). Suggest you look at either the En or Uraku from Japanese Knife Imports for a solid, no frills, quality knife. A phone call to Jon or one of his staff is always time well spent.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/nakiri

 

[Benuser]

Welcome aboard, David!
For your first sharpening, I would recommend simple, cheap carbon steel knives so you can learn the basics: raising a burr, chasing it, getting rid of it. My guess is old neglected, probably stainless knives first need a serious thinning before you may even think about putting something like an edge on it. If you want to save them, first send them out. Once thinned and their geometry restored you may try to maintain them yourself.
For now, better get a simple thin, carbon steel knife to start with. In Europe I would probably suggest a Robert Herder.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Welcome, any specific reason for blue super tho? For the price I'd get a Nihei Nihei SLD Nashiji Nakiri 165mm, or just go cheaper for a Uraku Gesshin Uraku 165mm SKD Nakiri

No specific reason for it other than I liked the way the yoshihiro looked and then the steel seemed like it was something i wouldn’t need to sharpen often while also being sharp. I’m not sure about convex blades (nothing to practice on) or the cheaper blade only because I thought they I read here that the steel wasn’t as good as some others. But I suppose that can be said about every steel!

 

[Qapla']

Welcome.

Here's another possibility:
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...s/jck-natures-deep-impact-series-nakiri-165mm
And if you like the Yoshihiro, you can buy it elsewhere than from Amazon:
https://www.echefknife.com/collecti...el-stainless-clad-nakiri-vegetable-chef-knife

Off topic, do you have any favorite dive-knives?

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Can't speak to either of your cited knives (cept I would not buy a knife off Amazon). Suggest you look at either the En or Uraku from Japanese Knife Imports for a solid, no frills, quality knife. A phone call to Jon or one of his staff is always time well spent.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/nakiri I planned to buy from the yoshihiro website directly because it was less expensive. I’m sure all of the knives he sells are solid quality.

Welcome.

Here's another possibility:
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...s/jck-natures-deep-impact-series-nakiri-165mm
And if you like the Yoshihiro, you can buy it elsewhere than from Amazon:
https://www.echefknife.com/collecti...el-stainless-clad-nakiri-vegetable-chef-knife

Off topic, do you have any favorite dive-knives?

I don't think I'll have the patience to wait for my first knife to be "in stock." Yes, I'm aware the knife is available elsewhere and actually have it in my in-basket at echefnife.com because its available without the saya and because it is less expensive. As for the dive knife, I went for the Underwater Kinetics Blue-Tang Titanium knife, with a blunt tip. But, I haven't been diving in over a decade, so maybe there is something better out there today. I definitely would not recommend getting a pointy knife for scuba diving.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Welcome aboard, David!
For your first sharpening, I would recommend simple, cheap carbon steel knives so you can learn the basics: raising a burr, chasing it, getting rid of it. My guess is old neglected, probably stainless knives first need a serious thinning before you may even think about putting something like an edge on it. If you want to save them, first send them out. Once thinned and their geometry restored you may try to maintain them yourself.
For now, better get a simple thin, carbon steel knife to start with. In Europe I would probably suggest a Robert Herder.

Thank you for the tips. I don't think the knives are worth sending out for sharpening, but I will try to work with them on my stones to get some practice and who knows, maybe I'll succeed in getting them into decent shape.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Welcome, any specific reason for blue super tho? For the price I'd get a Nihei Nihei SLD Nashiji Nakiri 165mm, or just go cheaper for a Uraku Gesshin Uraku 165mm SKD Nakiri

Can you tell me why you'd favor the Nihei to the Takayuki Iwai blade I mentioned?

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Boy, I see that the Yoshihiro maker also does a Hap-40 180 for 2x the price of the super blue. $400 for my first knife seems pricy but it is a pretty knife and it looks like it would last forever....

And then there is Yu Kurosaki Hap40 (160mm) for only $306 at Hocho... Hmmm....

​

 

[blokey]

Can you tell me why you'd favor the Nihei to the Takayuki Iwai blade I mentioned?

Better fit&finish, better grind, SLD is semi-stainless (D2) so less maintenance.

 

[daveb]

I don't think I'll have the patience to wait for my first knife to be "in stock." Yes, I'm aware the knife is available elsewhere and actually have it in my in-basket at echefnife.com because its available without the saya and because it is less expensive.

Hello again,

Yoshihiro is not a "he". It's a company that retails knives from many makers under the name. It's well thought of and knives from there are considered solid.

The knives I suggested considering, En and Uraku, are both in stock at JKI. Arguably as good or better, esp for a newcomer, under $200 and available from the most respected dealer in the biz.

Good luck in your search.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Hello again,

Yoshihiro is not a "he". It's a company that retails knives from many makers under the name. It's well thought of and knives from there are considered solid.

The knives I suggested considering, En and Uraku, are both in stock at JKI. Arguably as good or better, esp for a newcomer, under $200 and available from the most respected dealer in the biz.

Good luck in your search.

Thanks, i had thought the Uraku was the out of stock knife below the name. I did not assign a gender to the Yoshihiro company.

I should have noted initially that I own a Ken Onion by shun 8” chef knife. I don’t know if owning such a creature makes me a newcomer or not. That’s a VG 10 and I’ve had it for 10 years and used it maybe a total of 8 times. Not sure why except that I put put it on the top shelf to keep it away from my kids.

 

[miggus]

Welcome David!
Funky looking that Ken Onion is. Certainly not KKF standard, but certainly a knife that has gotten more effort than usual standard knives. I somehow love that it's designed in a way that forces a pinch grip

But there are of course quite a few more interesting knives out there. If you're willing to spend 300+ USD on a knife, there is a lot of options for sure to get something really nice. You could post a pic or two of those Martha Stewards if you want to get some advice on how to proceed with those. Enjoy the forum!

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Welcome David!
Funky looking that Ken Onion is. Certainly not KKF standard, but certainly a knife that has gotten more effort than usual standard knives. I somehow love that it's designed in a way that forces a pinch grip

But there are of course quite a few more interesting knives out there. If you're willing to spend 300+ USD on a knife, there is a lot of options for sure to get something really nice. You could post a pic or two of those Martha Stewards if you want to get some advice on how to proceed with those. Enjoy the forum!

It’s funny, I really do love the pinch grip hilt, but I don’t see the need for such a sharp point. Obviously it serves a purpose, but seemingly not for anything I do.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Turns out I also have “pure komaci 2” carbon knives. Picked them up at Costco several years ago. The nakiri could not cut paper but I was able to sharpen on 1000/6000 stones and now it cuts paper. Feels my less of a noob. Can’t imagine there are less expense carbon knives to practice on. Oddly the carving and chef knife were already sharp enough to cut paper.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

But there are of course quite a few more interesting knives out there. If you're willing to spend 300+ USD on a knife, there is a lot of options for sure to get something really nice. You could post a pic or two of those Martha Stewards if you want to get some advice on how to proceed with those. Enjoy the forum!

So the watanabe pro 180 with chestnut/horn comes to $353 with shipping plus whatever customs may decide to charge me. I know they have had a large markup recently but such is life. My question is whether that is clearly a superior knife than the YOSHIHIRO HIGH SPEED STAINLESS STEEL HAP40 NAKIRI VEGETABLE CHEFS KNIFE EBONY HANDLE WITH NURI SAYA COVER. They are both handcrafted, albeit the Wantanabe is presumably done under the watchful eye of Wantanabe (I don’t know if he does all the blades himself). Probably apples to pears comparison except for the price!

 

[miggus]

My question is whether that is clearly a superior knife

Oh, well, that's a good (bad) question I don't know how extensive an answer you really want.

Short answer: No. It isn't clearly superior. Both are amazing knives.

Longer answer: Maybe someone here knows something about the Yoshihiro that I don't know. But generally, at this price point, if you buy from a good maker, you're pretty deep in diminishing returns territory. That means that these knives all are at the high end and all should be close to the max in performance that is possible. If you spend 1000 bucks more on a 1400 $ nakiri, that won't really cut much better anymore. (One could also split up what "performance" actually means...) So it should rather come down to personal taste than anything else.

There are differences in style of knife, though. Puerely optical, but also technical. A blue steel is a traditional, non stainless steel, that will not stay sharp as long. HAP40 is a high-end powdered steel that will sharp longer but will also be more difficult to sharpen. There's a lot of debate about this, but imho, for a home cook, all of that isn't too relevant. It only really counts if you have 10-hour-shifts to go through with your knife.

Then there are different blade geometries etc that will affect the outcome. There are two ways of approaching these knives:

1. Pragmatic: You want to get a knife that is a great performer. Congratulations, you already have that with both candidates. You could add a Chef's knife at some point in time and be equipped for life with amazing cutting tools.

2. Enthusiast: You want to experience as many facets of high-end kitchen knives as possible. You want to try out all the styles in steel, geometry, sharpening approaches etc. Sure, some of these knives are even better than others, but generally, you will keep buying and selling knives to try as many as possible and keep the ones you like the most. Probably you will even start a collection and end up with an armory and a perspective on many ways to make and sharpen a knife. You think about steel types, hardening techniques, carbides, handle philosophies, blade weights, number of type of bevels, cladding vs. mono.... maybe you will even get a bit addicted and buy more knives than you should.

 

[blokey]

So the watanabe pro 180 with chestnut/horn comes to $353 with shipping plus whatever customs may decide to charge me. I know they have had a large markup recently but such is life. My question is whether that is clearly a superior knife than the YOSHIHIRO HIGH SPEED STAINLESS STEEL HAP40 NAKIRI VEGETABLE CHEFS KNIFE EBONY HANDLE WITH NURI SAYA COVER. They are both handcrafted, albeit the Wantanabe is presumably done under the watchful eye of Wantanabe (I don’t know if he does all the blades himself). Probably apples to pears comparison except for the price!

I'd go for the Watanabe, while you can't really judge a knife by the choil, the Yoshihiro do seems alot thicker in grind, Watanabe is much thinner and the grind is superb. Whether Watanabe does his own blade tho is actually quite a big discussion, alot of people thinks Toyama does most of Watanabe's blade, tho that's just speculation. US custom don't charge import below $800.

 

[blokey]

Turns out I also have “pure komaci 2” carbon knives. Picked them up at Costco several years ago. The nakiri could not cut paper but I was able to sharpen on 1000/6000 stones and now it cuts paper. Feels my less of a noob. Can’t imagine there are less expense carbon knives to practice on. Oddly the carving and chef knife were already sharp enough to cut paper.

"High carbon stainless steel" is just a marketing term, it could range from 3cr13 to vg10, certainly not carbon steel in the sense here.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

"High carbon stainless steel" is just a marketing term, it could range from 3cr13 to vg10, certainly not carbon steel in the sense here.

Are you suggesting my $8 a piece knives from Costco are somehow not up the standards of a specialized knife forum? I’ll have you know they get 5 stars on Amazon. And they come with sheaths!

 

[blokey]

Are you suggesting my $8 a piece knives from Costco are somehow not up the standards of a specialized knife forum? I’ll have you know they get 5 stars on Amazon. And they come with sheaths!

Just saying they are not carbon steel, carbon steel don't mean high standard tho, you can get one pretty cheap too.
https://www.wokshop.com/newstore/product/vegetable-cleaver/

 

[DavidScubadiver]

So, one more knife I saw which looks nice... Hatsukokoro Inazuma AS 165mm Nakiri Custom #1, Made of Aogami Super, 165mm

The handle reminded me of the Wantanabe Pro 180 custom handle on the right.

 

[blokey]

So, one more knife I saw which looks nice... Hatsukokoro Inazuma AS 165mm Nakiri Custom #1, Made of Aogami Super, 165mm

The handle reminded me of the Wantanabe Pro 180 custom handle on the right.

Just a head up this knife is pure iron cladded carbon steel not stainless cladded, the grind itself looks good tho. If Sugi's description on those are correct their AS is on the very conservative side. If you are ok with carbon cladding I'd say Kochi Nakiri at JKI is better value, Watanabe nakiri is also at the $300 range and it is hard to beat.
https://sugicutlery.com/products/hatsukokoro-inazuma-aogamj-super-nakiri-165mm-blade-only

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Just a head up this knife is pure iron cladded carbon steel not stainless cladded, the grind itself looks good tho. If Sugi's description on those are correct their AS is on the very conservative side. If you are ok with carbon cladding I'd say Kochi Nakiri at JKI is better value, Watanabe nakiri is also at the $300 range and it is hard to beat.
https://sugicutlery.com/products/hatsukokoro-inazuma-aogamj-super-nakiri-165mm-blade-only

Thank you. The HRC 64-65 listing compared 62-63 seems significant. I assumed the information came from the manufacturer.... are these just numbers the reseller makes up?

I'm not so concerned with the cladding. If I have to take care of the edge, I might as well take care of the face. Maybe I'm wrong about that th ough.

I did note that the price was nearly exactly the same as the Wantanabe Pro, whose core is identified as Yasuki blue steel. I am gravitating toward the Wantanabe only because everybody says it is such a wonderful knife! There is no HRC rating for that one though?

 

[blokey]

Thank you. The HRC 64-65 listing compared 62-63 seems significant. I assumed the information came from the manufacturer.... are these just numbers the reseller makes up?

I'm not so concerned with the cladding. If I have to take care of the edge, I might as well take care of the face. Maybe I'm wrong about that th ough.

I did note that the price was nearly exactly the same as the Wantanabe Pro, whose core is identified as Yasuki blue steel. I am gravitating toward the Wantanabe only a everybody says it is such a wonderful knife! There is no HRC rating for that one though?

Usually provided by the manufacturer or in Hatsukokoro's case the distributor, some resellers simply don't check their information and put the same data for every knife in same steel.
Iron cladding tend to rust quicker than the core steel so that's why some people don't like them.
Watanabe uses blue 2, his heat treatment is on the hard side, no specific hrc but from my experience the edge last very long, longer than some blue 1 or even as.

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Usually provided by the manufacturer or in Hatsukokoro's case the distributor, some resellers simply don't check their information and put the same data for every knife in same steel.
Iron cladding tend to rust quicker than the core steel so that's why some people don't like them.
Watanabe uses blue 2, his heat treatment is on the hard side, no specific hrc but from my experience the edge last very long, longer than some blue 1 or even as.

Okay... maybe I just do what I read here and stop my search for the right Nakiri with Wantanabe. Wish I could hold thesee things before purchasing. I feel like I want the smaller one though people seem to be partial to the larger. Thank you so much for your assists this week!

 

[DavidScubadiver]

Nine days from posting my question till getting my knife in hand from the Land of the Rising Sun. Sharper than anything I owned, but that is not surprising.

 

[DavidScubadiver]