Masakage Aogami or Shirogami

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Joost

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Hi all,

I've had a cheap vg10 knife for a year now, which is fine for most cutting but it's edge retention is horrible, nearly same as my zwillings but without the option to be honed.

While searching for a new knife, the Masakage's caught my eye, both aogami and shirogami (both #2) series.

Now I was wondering: what is the practical difference between those steels?
I have found both are high in hrc, around 62/63, and both will be somewhat reactive as they are carbon steel.
Also, the aogami series is (way) cheaper than the shirogami series.

Any thoughts?
 
I don't have experience with Masakage. However, I do own a few knives made with blue and white #2. I would have to say that my white #2 knives do not retain it's edge as well as my knives in blue #2. I can make it through a busy two weeks at work with just stropping with the blue #2 and about a week on the white #2. Given that though, the white #2 feels so much better to sharpen and I feel that white #2 also gets a bit sharper.
 
Blue steel has quite some Tungsten added which forms very hard carbides and thus the steel will hold the edge longer. On the other hand blue steel will be slightly more brittle and not quite as fine grained as white steel. Have a look at the [video=youtube;jkLsLst8qMc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLsLst8qMc&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&index=24[/video] Jon from JKI made about different steels, it will give you a great overview on the topic.

The Tungsten in blue steel makes it harder to forge and grind (also sharpen, but it is still pretty easy), plus the heat treat is little more demanding to get the temperatures and process right (I am half-guessing here), which together yields higher prices.

If you are after ultimate edge holding, than you should have a look at steels like A2 (SKD), D2 (SLD), PM steels (power metallurgy - SG2, SRS-15, etc.), super blue, zdp-189, etc. Most of them will however be harder to sharpen than simple-ish carbon steels like white or blue
 
I presume this is masakage yuki and masakage mizu, the shimo line isn't for a new user. It's very reactive. The yuki line is a little bit thicker at the spine and bas far better fit and finish. Thé mizu is a budget line. Thé handle on thé yuki line is also much better. Red pakka Wood vs plastic. Saying that i do like the mizu lines looks
 
@Joost who told you you cannot hone VG10? It might be a bad idea to put a rough STEEL to it, but generally honing it is probably what you are missing... or you might be having a residual burr/wire edge issue with the VG10...

BTW, I still find it terribly confusing, some will say blue is the more resilient, some say it is the more brittle... :) My own experience seems to suggest that while blue might hold an at-all usable edge longer, you can keep white in a state that can be gotten back to shaving sharp by non-abrasive means (unloaded strops like wood, paper....) longer.
 
lifebya1000cuts makes a good point.
but having owned both MIZU and Yuki .. the mizu keeps a longer edge if you don't want to touch it up. including touch ups its very close. I only went to the stones once with them both though.

Also the Yuki is more lazer profile. - and i want to say the white is more reactive then the blue.

lastly - the mizu handle soaks in water. so if you have wet hands, and touch the handle you can see the water marks in the handle until l it dries. ( might crack and be a problem long term)
 
I would like to recommend that you buy something other than Masakage. I have experience with yuki and Koishi lines and I only like the Koishi honesuke knife. I don´t think they were well made - they didn´t cut well. Just my 2 cents :)
- Kim
 
KimBronnum said:
I would like to recommend that you buy something other than Masakage. I have experience with yuki and Koishi lines and I only like the Koishi honesuke knife. I don´t think they were well made - they didn´t cut well. Just my 2 cents :)
- Kim
Click to expand...

Wasn't there a YouTube video where Maksim/Greg (I think it was one of them?) put a Masakage against another knife and it didn't do too well?
 
I think one needs to be careful with recommending to buy (or not to buy) Masakage. It's really not a traditional company, but more of a brand marketing totally different knives made by various (more or less highly regarded) makers who also make and market knives in their own names. You really can't compare most of the Masakage brands or at least can't say "one is good (bad), all are good (bad)".

While I'm not a Masakage fanboy, some of them are decent cutters. I have a Yuki Nakiri which is a bit too thick behind the edge, but I heard of others who love it after thinning. I think the F&F is pretty good and I like the looks.

I also have a Shimo Gyuto. And while the reactivity is one of the worst there is, it's a pretty darn good cutter and Yu Kurosaki (the smith) is widely considered one of the young up and coming smiths, if I'm not mistaken...
 
I hear you, and I didn't meen to bash Masakage I was just disappointed with most of mine. I also stated that my coment was about Yuki and Koishi. The Koishi in the above mentioned video was mine.
 
KimBronnum said:
I hear you, and I didn't meen to bash Masakage I was just disappointed with most of mine. I also stated that my coment was about Yuki and Koishi. The Koishi in the above mentioned video was mine.
Click to expand...

Didn't mean to call you out. Just felt that that often there's a misconception or misunderstanding out there about Masakage Knives. A lot of times people talk about it in a way they talk about a brand like Konosuke. Which is a totally different setup... [emoji6]
 
I love my Koishi's. Largest shown here is the 210mm at top. I have the 240mm but have no need for it so it stays in the safe.
The bugaboo with this line is the microchrystaline (etched) finish that is responsible for so much cutting resistance due to surface friction. I found that I could work these blades heavily against a fine Scotchbrite 1x30 belt and remove the roughness without taking off the black finish as shown in the 2nd pic.

20160303_151723.jpg


2016-03-04%2013.32.19.jpg
 
@alterwisser doesn't help either that some knives seem to be sold as a Masakage line in certain channels/in certain regions, and sold under the smith's name in others...
 
Nomo4me said:
I love my Koishi's. Largest shown here is the 210mm at top. I have the 240mm but have no need for it so it stays in the safe.
The bugaboo with this line is the microchrystaline (etched) finish that is responsible for so much cutting resistance due to surface friction. I found that I could work these blades heavily against a fine Scotchbrite 1x30 belt and remove the roughness without taking off the black finish as shown in the 2nd pic.

20160303_151723.jpg


2016-03-04%2013.32.19.jpg
Click to expand...
@Nomo4me -
Smart move smoothing off that finish! It is quite problematic for me when pushing through thin slices of fish.

I had considered working on this with some finger stones. Eventually. But your method is intriguing.

I have Koishi sujihiki 270. This region is as hollow ground behind the edge. I can’t imagine how to access with a belt. Can you explain how you did it?

I believe Kato is the maker for my blade. In my case, it’s a great performer! The grind is very nice: thin behind the edge but substantially thick to be rigid all the way to the tip. The only area for improvement would be this texture. It’s aesthetically pleasing but for me, performance is the focus. I will add this stickiness has not been an issue with wet products; but only proteins sliced very thinly.
 
If you want to stick to stainless, I highly suggest the kikuichi warkomi gold. Folks never believe me for all my other collection, but it gets the toothiest edge and has great retention for a vg10, it felt more like shirogomi than a stainless. It sharpens really easily as well. I used to bang with one in a high volume kitchen for ease of maintenance and durability.
 
When people say hard to sharpen where it relates to any of these steels, it's probably way overstated. The only steel I've really found to be hard to sharpen is 3cr13 and you'll only find that on cheap knives.
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
@Joost who told you you cannot hone VG10? It might be a bad idea to put a rough STEEL to it, but generally honing it is probably what you are missing... or you might be having a residual burr/wire edge issue with the VG10...

BTW, I still find it terribly confusing, some will say blue is the more resilient, some say it is the more brittle... :) My own experience seems to suggest that while blue might hold an at-all usable edge longer, you can keep white in a state that can be gotten back to shaving sharp by non-abrasive means (unloaded strops like wood, paper....) longer.
Click to expand...

Resilience and edge retention are not the same thing.

Edge retention is how long your edge will remain sharp under typical force.

Resilience, or often called durability, is how unlikely your edge is to chip or majorly deform under increased force.

In other words, a knife that will be abused must be durable. A knife that will be used may not necessarily benefit from durability, although that will be a nice to have.

Blue steel, given the structure of the steel, should have longer edge retention than white steel, but for the same reasons, should be more brittle than white steel (although I've not found blue #2 to be brittle at high hardness under regular operation).
 
LucasFur said:
because silverswafer wants to talk about Masakage .... and all the current discussions are about konosuke/shig/Kato(fujiwara)
Click to expand...
lol

I am trying to figure a good way to modify the textured finish behind the edge- in a similar way as mentioned by Nomo.

... then things get weird
 
SilverSwarfer said:
lol

I am trying to figure a good way to modify the textured finish behind the edge- in a similar way as mentioned by Nomo.

... then things get weird
Click to expand...
No idea amigo.... did you try rubbing on a stone LOL?

Genuinely over the years at knife wear I've seen different finishes on the koishi lines ....
I would say put it on the stones and use ferric chloride to darken. :/
 
repeated washing with a green scrubby will take that black finish off, and they do perform better after that
 
SilverSwarfer said:
I am trying to figure a good way to modify the textured finish behind the edge- in a similar way as mentioned by Nomo.
Click to expand...
Are you wanting to smooth the bead blasting on the blade road or the KU finish? I was not a fan of the bead blasting on the blade road of my Koishi and hand sanded it with 800 and then 1k sandpaper.
 
bahamaroot said:
Are you wanting to smooth the bead blasting on the blade road or the KU finish? I was not a fan of the bead blasting on the blade road of my Koishi and hand sanded it with 800 and then 1k sandpaper.
Click to expand...
The blade road texture is what I think needs improvement.

The Kurouchi is great, although not actually functionally effective, it lends a very appropriate aesthetic.
 
bahamaroot said:
Are you wanting to smooth the bead blasting on the blade road or the KU finish? I was not a fan of the bead blasting on the blade road of my Koishi and hand sanded it with 800 and then 1k sandpaper.
Click to expand...
I’d appreciate an opportunity to see how it turned out. Would you post a pic?
 
I recently sold the knife to a close friend but I can say I thought it turned out nicely and the new owner liked the look over bead blasting also. It does take a little skill and patience but it is not difficult to do if you take your time and check your work. The biggest challenge is keeping the scratch pattern straight.
 
Masakage Aogami chip often.
If you're looking for a high hrc for edge retention, maybe you can go for Mazaki. 65hrc at the price of a normal shirogami
 
Even though this is an old thread, I can give a comment. In my experience... only beginners, steel nerds or pros wanting to optimimize edge retention worry about the general differences between shirogami and aogami. As a home cook you should care more about geometry, profile and grind, imo. Well, those attributes should be important for a pro as well, I guess. ;)
 
limpet said:
Even though this is an old thread, I can give a comment. In my experience... only beginners, steel nerds or pros wanting to optimimize edge retention worry about the general differences between shirogami and aogami. As a home cook you should care more about geometry, profile and grind, imo. Well, those attributes should be important for a pro as well, I guess. ;)
Click to expand...
Why not worry about everything? If you post here, you are an enthusiast. Profile, grind, steel and heat treatment, and as a result edge taking ability, retention, and toughness. Why sacrifice anything?
 
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