My first knife suggestion thread - Santoku version

[JustinP]

I didn't fill in the knife suggestion questionnaire as my question is pretty specific.

I'm slowly starting my collection of "fine" blades and filling in my collection. Although, having been browsing this and other forums, my definition of fine might have the bar set a bit low .

I'm looking to add a 180ish mm Santoku to the collection. Anyone familiar with the Teruyasu Fujiwara Nashiji series? For some reason that knife catches my eye and can be had at a reasonable price. I think it's the "rawness" and "baseness" of the finish that appeals me.

 

[refcast]

The forum is really familiar with Teruyasu Fujiwara, and Nashiji.

On the hardest, chippier end, and best-edge taking side of carbon steels.
Preclad bar stock forged down.
More brittle than Maboroshi no Meito.
Exposed layers on the rough spine.
Often uneven grind
Uncommonly, but it happens enough, wavy spine or something
Commonly, handle install at an angle (rotated one way or another)
Hammer finish helps a bit with food release
Middleweight, but they vary a lotttt. Some heavyweight, some thickworkhorsey, some lasery thin


You could do worse for a high end knife. This is a good entry to feel hard, high-sharpness edge taking steel. I like some aspects of this smith's knives, I prefer other makers.

 

[refcast]

I had a 165 Maboroshi, 165 Denka, and I liked Gihei and Heiji Semi stainless santoku more.

 

[JustinP]

I had a 165 Maboroshi, 165 Denka, and I liked Gihei and Heiji Semi stainless santoku more.

Is this the Gihei you have?

https://www.**************.com/gihasa16.html

That is a gorgeous knife.

 

[refcast]

I got a Gihei Kazahana Hap40. I wonder how the zdp 189 is though. There is a cheaper hap40 model. The more expensive 'kazahana' one is forged. I didn't get it from that website, which I think is probably 'something knives to go'. I got it from ebay.

 

[refcast]

The advantage is this is that it is the toughest steel i've used. . . but never gets sharp like carbon, but is a lot harder than other steels, too. I has a really nice handle, oval with polished buffalo horn and old dense ho wood.

But for the price, I don't think you can find a comparable harder better edge taking carbon steel heat treat except Heiji. . . but that's not all to a knife.

 

[JustinP]

The advantage is this is that it is the toughest steel i've used. . . but never gets sharp like carbon, but is a lot harder than other steels, too. I has a really nice handle, oval with polished buffalo horn and old dense ho wood.

But for the price, I don't think you can find a comparable harder better edge taking carbon steel heat treat except Heiji. . . but that's not all to a knife.

Are you referring to the Gehei HAP40 or the Fujiwara Nashiji?

 

[refcast]

HAP40, which is a highly alloyed powder steel with no crazy amounts of carbon (which can tend to, if not carefully handled, make steel brittle)

Yeah, any carbon knife is fine though. You'll learn what the maker is good at and so on. One website I've been meaning to try is knifejapan.com. The couple who run the site have a whole bunch of blacksmiths I've never seen on any other English website. They have really nice pictures. They aren't the most knowledgable, but they are really helpful.

 

[Nemo]

Knife suggestion threads typically start by answering the questionnaire:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/12791/

Cut and paste it into this thread and answer the questions.

 

[Elliot]

Ikeda’s Blue #1 suminagashi comes in a 180mm Santoku. It’s lovely. Check Bernal—Josh has it pretty often.

 

[HRC_64]

OP you need a budget and some basic preferences...like budget, etc.

The better santoku profiles I've seen are shigefusa KU, masamoto KA,
yoshikane SLD damascus, and the suisin hayate (by itsuo doi).

I'd also seriously look at 180 gyutos and rule these out first,
as they are more usable in western kitchens/cuisines.

eg>https://japaneseknifereviews.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/watanabee-factsheet-large.png?w=818&h=1024

They are a better value ($/use ratio)
and pair well with 240mm main knifes.

 

[JustinP]

Thanks for the replies

Knife suggestion threads typically start by answering the questionnaire:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/12791/

Cut and paste it into this thread and answer the questions.

I didn't add the questionnaire as most of the questions didn't apply to my specific question.

OP you need a budget and some basic preferences...like budget, etc.

The better santoku profiles I've seen are shigefusa KU, masamoto KA,
yoshikane SLD damascus, and the suisin hayate (by itsuo doi).

I'd also seriously look at 180 gyutos and rule these out first,
as they are more usable in western kitchens/cuisines.

eg>https://japaneseknifereviews.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/watanabee-factsheet-large.png?w=818&h=1024

They are a better value ($/use ratio)
and pair well with 240mm main knifes.

Budget - around $200 for the next step down the rabbit hole . The Fujiwara Nashiji 180mm santoku can be had for $180, but I'm flexible if I can do better around that price range.

I already have an 8 inch Shun chefs knife, so have a usable gyuto style blade for now. I want to add a Santoku to the collection, eventually I'll probably add another gyuto

 

[Xenif]

Thanks for the replies



I didn't add the questionnaire as most of the questions didn't apply to my specific question.



Budget - around $200 for the next step down the rabbit hole . The Fujiwara Nashiji 180mm santoku can be had for $180, but I'm flexible if I can do better around that price range.

I already have an 8 inch Shun chefs knife, so have a usable gyuto style blade for now. I want to add a Santoku to the collection, eventually I'll probably add another gyuto

We would love to help, but still a lot of info missing for us to give a proper suggestion.
What Hand do you use? Grip? What are your "priority" (eg retention, ease of sharpening, looks, etc.), Do you sharpen own knives? All of those will help us give you a better answer , that's why it's most practical to start with the questionnaire.

 

[JustinP]

We would love to help, but still a lot of info missing for us to give a proper suggestion.
What Hand do you use? Grip? What are your "priority" (eg retention, ease of sharpening, looks, etc.), Do you sharpen own knives? All of those will help us give you a better answer , that's why it's most practical to start with the questionnaire.

Fair enough - answers below:


LOCATION
What country are you in? US


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in? Santoku

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle or Japanese handle? Prefer Japanese handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 180 - but this will be my first santoku so open to suggestions

Do you require a stainless knife? no

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? The knife I'm looking at is $180, but would probably go up to $250ish if the right alternative came up.


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) - Slicing and dicing veggies, cutting meat, mincing etc

What knife, if any, are you replacing? None - this will be my first Santoku

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use?

==============
Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
==============

Grouping these together. This will be my first foray into higher end Japanese cutlery. Well, beyond Shun anyway. I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for yet . I'm looking for an experience for lack of better words. As far as blade aesthetics, different things appeal to me - for example, I like the raw look of the Teruyasu Fujiwara Nashiji, and on the other hand, I like the look of knives like the Masakage Koishi with the hammered finish. I would prefer something that was not a project out of the box before i can actually use it.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) N/A

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) I will if I don't have what I need on hand.

 

[JustinP]

So what's the consensus on the Masakage Koishi AS line? Is seems the deeper you step into this rabbit hole the more you wind up spending.

This 170mm Bunka really speaks to me, and seems to be a well respected knife.

https://images.yswcdn.com/-6709878151531560371-ql-85/800/600/ay/**************/masakage-koishi-bunka-170mm-43.png

 

[Matus]

Santoku feels too short for most meat work to me, but it of course can be done.

Have a look at the K-tip santoku from JKI. I had it and it is a great knife. It moved to a pro kitchen.

 

[hennyville]

Matus meant Kochi kurouchi K-tip santoku from JKI. very good knife, i love it.

 

[Nemo]

Is there a reason youmprefer a santoku to a gyuto? Do you have limited kitchen or board space? If not, a gyuto is a more versatile choice than a santoku.

The other decision to make is- do you want a thin, light knife that slides through hard produce easily but has poor food release (poor performance in wet foods) can feel a little flimsy in the cut (will show up deficeincies in your cutting technique) or a heavier knife with good food release which can wedge a little in hard foods? Or something in between?

You didn't tell us which cutting momtions you use. This helps up pick a knife profile for you.

I can't really comment on Santokus- I have only ever had one. If you decide that gyutos are in the mix, then we can talk.

 

[JustinP]

Thanks for the Kochi suggestions folks, will check it out.

Is there a reason youmprefer a santoku to a gyuto? Do you have limited kitchen or board space? If not, a gyuto is a more versatile choice than a santoku.

The other decision to make is- do you want a thin, light knife that slides through hard produce easily but has poor food release (poor performance in wet foods) can feel a little flimsy in the cut (will show up deficeincies in your cutting technique) or a heavier knife with good food release which can wedge a little in hard foods? Or something in between?

You didn't tell us which cutting momtions you use. This helps up pick a knife profile for you.

I can't really comment on Santokus- I have only ever had one. If you decide that gyutos are in the mix, then we can talk.

Sorry, I thought I mentioned it. I already have a gyuto style knife from Shun. I'll probably add more in the near future, but it serves me well enough for now. I just wanted to add a santoku style to my collection as well, as I've never had one.

As far as weight/thickness, probably something more in between. Although I probably wouldn't use this much for harder foods.

 

[HRC_64]

For gyutos, a flat profile and low height are quite useful in 175-195mm range, as are taller profile and heavier weight in a 225-240.

 

[bprescot]

Hello OP!

TF Nashiji's can be great. As others have mentioned, they can have fit and finish issues. I don't roll the dice on them new online and would only consider buying one if I could see it, or trusted the seller to select a nice one for me.

When the people here mention that you may not want a Santoku, realize they are talking from personal experience and, often, as home cooks, not just as pros. Most of us have had Santoku's or continue to have them. But as our options at home grew, we reached for it less and less, usually because it didn't do what we wanted as well as other options, including a shorter Gyuto.

Your $200 budget is perfectly reasonable. A really nice entry point to higher end knives. And if you want suggestions for that budget, please skip to the next paragraph. Because the remainder of THIS paragraph is going to point out to you that an inordinately sexy Wakui nashiji 210mm Gyuto is currently on BST. And, in the grand scheme of things, it isn't THAT much more than your budget and has the benefit of already being something that is a potential "forever" knife with likely no more work done. I've never had a stock TF nashiji i could say that about. Just a thought, and now to give you recommendations that ACTUALLY fit your criteria.


Hitohira Futana S3 Nashiji Santoku: Ginsanko is a lovely steel, the profile of this is a great light middleweight feel (less steel behind the edge will give more perceived sharpness), clad in stainless still with Nashiji look. Handled one a while ago and liked it enough to look into getting a nakiri.

Akifusa Wa-Santoku 165mm: Shorter than you want. Powdered steel (SRS-15) clad with Stainless. HT in the 64 range. That is either a good or a bad thing depending on your cutting technique (ie avoid lateral stresses and don't be an idiot or you're gonna chip it like crazy). Felt pretty damn laserish, but I only took it for an in-store test drive with some onion and potato, so hard to say.

Zakuri 170mm Santoku: Not Nashiji, but a KU finish. A0gami Super core (you will see this referred to as AS or Blue Super). Heftier knife but still a great cutter. The only Carbon core knife on the list, but realize it's carbon core.


If you're willing to budge off the Santoku profile, though, we can definitely come up with some more (and I'd argue better) recommendations.

Cheers!
Ben

 

[JustinP]

Thanks folks for your replies so far. I think you're pushing me towards the Gyuto. I just recently got the Shun (which seems to be a gateway drug), so felt a little silly getting another of the same type of knife so quickly. But I suspect you all are right, that if I'm going to lay out a substantial sum for a knife, it makes more sense to invest in the blade style I use for the majority of cooking.

Hello OP!

TF Nashiji's can be great. As others have mentioned, they can have fit and finish issues. I don't roll the dice on them new online and would only consider buying one if I could see it, or trusted the seller to select a nice one for me.

When the people here mention that you may not want a Santoku, realize they are talking from personal experience and, often, as home cooks, not just as pros. Most of us have had Santoku's or continue to have them. But as our options at home grew, we reached for it less and less, usually because it didn't do what we wanted as well as other options, including a shorter Gyuto.

Your $200 budget is perfectly reasonable. A really nice entry point to higher end knives. And if you want suggestions for that budget, please skip to the next paragraph. Because the remainder of THIS paragraph is going to point out to you that an inordinately sexy Wakui nashiji 210mm Gyuto is currently on BST. And, in the grand scheme of things, it isn't THAT much more than your budget and has the benefit of already being something that is a potential "forever" knife with likely no more work done. I've never had a stock TF nashiji i could say that about. Just a thought, and now to give you recommendations that ACTUALLY fit your criteria.


Hitohira Futana S3 Nashiji Santoku: Ginsanko is a lovely steel, the profile of this is a great light middleweight feel (less steel behind the edge will give more perceived sharpness), clad in stainless still with Nashiji look. Handled one a while ago and liked it enough to look into getting a nakiri.

Akifusa Wa-Santoku 165mm: Shorter than you want. Powdered steel (SRS-15) clad with Stainless. HT in the 64 range. That is either a good or a bad thing depending on your cutting technique (ie avoid lateral stresses and don't be an idiot or you're gonna chip it like crazy). Felt pretty damn laserish, but I only took it for an in-store test drive with some onion and potato, so hard to say.

Zakuri 170mm Santoku: Not Nashiji, but a KU finish. A0gami Super core (you will see this referred to as AS or Blue Super). Heftier knife but still a great cutter. The only Carbon core knife on the list, but realize it's carbon core.


If you're willing to budge off the Santoku profile, though, we can definitely come up with some more (and I'd argue better) recommendations.

Cheers!
Ben

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Ben, and recommending different santokus. But, I think I've been swayed to the gyuto as I mentioned above. I know you mentioned the Wakui for sale, and it looks like a great knife. But, the Masakage Koishi line is really calling my name, and seems to a highly regarded knife. Any feedback on those would be appreciated. I'll probably stick with the 210mm as it's what I'm familiar and comfortable with. I'll be honest, a good part of it is looks, and I can't stop looking at those.