My first "which Knife Should I Buy" thread.

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Neofolis

KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2020
Messages
156
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125
Location
Salisbury, UK
LOCATION
UK



KNIFE TYPE
Nakiri

Left Handed

Will be replacing the handle, so it doesn't even need to have one.

165mm

Doesn't need to be stainless

Maximum £400



KNIFE USE
Home use.

Chopping veg.

Not replacing as such, but I would currently use a Victorinox Fibrox chef's knife.

Pinch Grip.

Push cutting, Slicing, Rocking

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I don't object to damascus/tsuchime, prefer good edge retention.

Prefer a lighter knife <150g, prefer a nicely finished spine/choil, prefer a slightly blade biassed balance, although as I will be replacing the handle, there is no way to guarantee this.

Good food release, less reactive.

Would prefer at least 3-4 weeks edge retention with light (less than daily) use.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Teak edge grain chopping board.

I will be sharpening the blade myself.

I will need to gain experience sharpening.

I will need to purchase sharpening stones, strops, etc.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I'm here to learn, will probably only buy 1-2 knives per year, assuming the obsession doesn't take over.
 
Welcome to the forums. Hopefully your first of many "which knife" threads.

Are you sure you want a nakiri if you rock chop? I don't know how you'd achieve that with a nakiri.

If you currently use a Vic Chef knife, I'd suggest getting a real gyuto so that you can compare them and see what all of the fuss is about.

Watanabe Pro is indeed a good nakiri. Being carbon steel, it is reactive, although not ridiculously so.

The Toyama is said to be very similar (certainly, the Wat gyutos are quite similar to the Toyamas). I can never keep up with whether you Poms are still in the EU. Toyamas are sold in Denmark by Maxim at JNS if that still helps with import duty.

Edit: just realised that you are a leftie. Agree with @Dull_Apex Dull_that you are definitely gonna want a leftie grind.
 
I certainly wouldn't be using a rocking motion with a Nakiri, I tend to only rock when I'm cutting herbs or finely cutting onion, garlic, etc.

I read through as many Nakiri posts as I could cope with and saw Watanabe mentioned frequently. There was also a lot of mention of Teruyasu Fujiwara, Shigefusa, Takeda, Konosuke and Heiji. I was wondering what the main differences are and why people prefer one maker to another.

In terms of EU membership, we have technically already left, but still in the transition period, so nothing has changed yet. That said the transition period ends at the end of the year, so anything I buy now is likely to arrive after we have fully left. A free trade deal was finally agreed two days ago, but is unlikely to be ratified by the time the transition period ends, although they may choose to have an implementation period, basically extending the transition period until everything is ratified. I very much doubt it will affect any purchasing decisions I make, but it may affect how long it takes me to receive things and potentially affect import duty, although it was described as a free trade deal, so that shouldn't be an issue either.

So I'm not entirely sure how being a leftie affects things. Obviously handle shape can be non-symmetrical, single bevel blades would be bevelled on the wrong side and anything that's not a 50/50 bevel will have the larger percentage on the wrong side. Are there any other things I should know about?

Would I be safer with a 50/50 bevel or a single bevel, given my inexperience with sharpening. I'm guessing a 70/30 or 80/20, etc. would require more skill when sharpening.

Also, to put people's minds slightly at rest, I have no intention of practicing my sharpening skills on an expensive blade. I will be learning using my existing knives, so, if whatever Nakiri I buy is not too good out of the box, I just won't use it until I'm at least reasonably confident about putting a decent edge on it.
 
There is really no such thing as a symmetrical Japanese style knife. See @Kippington 's excellent thread on assymetry:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/a-basic-explanation-of-asymmetry.33951/
Only a small portion af a balde's assymetry is at the edge. The rest is higher up the blade face and contributes to food release. Assymetry is much less on thin knives, larger on thicker knives.

You may want to learn to sharpen on a knife that has at least decent steel. Western stainless (such as found in Victorinox) has a very gummy sharpenining feel and takes effort to form a burr. The burr is then very tenacious and takes a fair bit of effort to remove. The steel is not vey fine grained, so the end result is not as keen an edge.

Carbon steels are, by and large, much easier to sharpen.

An imexpensive carbon knife would be an ideal knife to learn sharpening on. Something like a Fujiwarra Kanefusa FKH (not the stainless FKM), a Misono Swedish or a Shiro Kamo Kurochi AS.
 
I've just read some posts about asymmetry and sharpening asymmetrical knives, which doesn't seem in the least bit daunting, especially as I have awful eyesight. Guess I'll be relying on feel, which may require the experience I don't have.

So, in terms of a cheaper knife to practice on, I'm tempted to get a petty, but would I be better off with a larger blade.

Also, would I be better deciding which Nakiri to get and then getting a cheaper knife that uses the same steel?
 
If you can see the knife and the angle it makes with the stone, then you should be anle to sharpen it. Tactile and aural feedback are very important in sharpening.

I guess you could get a petty, but I don't seet he advantage in your situation.

Be aware that the heat treatment that the smith gives to the steel is probably more important than the steel itself. A cheap blade in the same steel may not have identical sharoening or edge retention characteristices. Luckily, there are lots of people on the forums who have used and sharpened many different knives. Benefit from their experience.
 
Two schools of thought on sharpening.

The correct school will have you learning to sharpen on knives that you will use. You would have to do something very wrong, for a long time, with a lot of pressure, to mess up a knife. This does not apply to the inevitable scuffs you will leave on the blade - and as you gain proficiency you won't do that as often and eventually learn how to remove them.

The wrong school will have you buy cheap crap knives to learn on and leave your "good" knives alone. Then you will develop proficiency on sharpening cheap crap knives. Eventually. (Cheap crap knives are usually more difficult to sharpen than good knives.)

On your Nakiri question, the nakiri is a nice 2nd knife to have, in addition to a good gyuto or chef knife. Suggest you will be best served with a 1 - 200 USD gyuto to see what you like about it, do you like stainless or carbon or both. And then shop for that nakiri.

Best.
 
The reason I wanted a Nakiri is that my current, cheap chef's knives are mainly used for chopping veg and it's rare that I use a rocking motion. If I had a Nakiri, it would be very infrequently that I would need to reach for one of my chef's knives. No doubt I would add a Gyuto to my line up, but I wanted my first knife to be the thing that I am likely to want to use most often.

I would prefer to try carbon steel, as the advantages seem to outweigh any disadvantages considerably. In the same that that the advantages of Japanese knives outweigh any disadvantages when compared with German knives.
 
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From what I can tell from the replies here and what I've been reading here and elsewhere, if I get a Nakiri, it should be a custom left handed grind. It appears that most of the sought after knives are generally unavailable and, when they are, wouldn't be left handed.

Most of the knives that are highly recommended would be heavier than what I quoted as my ideal weight, although they will vary from one knife to the next.

The names that I see praised most highly are Watanabe, Shigefusa, Kato, Toyama and Fujiwara. Of those Shige and Kato will be the most difficult to get hold of, potentially impossible for left handed. Fujiwara don't have the best F&F, which may not be ideal given my inexperience with quality knives. The Watanabe and Toyama are very similar.

Of the Watanabe and Toyama, I've found the website for Watanabe Blades, which is closed for correspondence until the end of January. I've not found a site for direct contact with Toyama.

All of that said, it may be that none of these knives would suit me, because of my preference for lighter, nimble blades.

I did see another thread comparing Nakiris that mentioned lighter blades were available from Wakui, Kurosaki/Masakage, although I remember another thread where someone weighed a Wakui and was surprised how heavy it was, 193g from memory.

As should be fairly obvious by now, I still don't know what direction I should take or whether I should be getting a Gyuto, as daveb suggested, I guess I could just get both. I'm really bad at making purchasing decisions at the best of times, but with so much new information to contend with and so many options, maybe I'm best just going for whatever I can get, although I don't mind waiting.

Out of interest, if I buy a knife and am not happy with it, are left handed knives more difficult to trade, because of less demand or easier. because of less availability?

I hope deciding on and finding sharpening gear is easier.
 
I'm not sure why a "lefty" nakiri is critical. They are typically not biased enough to be difficult for either hand.

Suggest at this point you try and reach out to Jon and crew at Japanese Knife Imports. He welcomes phone calls and can better advise you as to the suitability of this or other nakiri. Gesshin Uraku 165mm SKD Nakiri.
 
I don't think that you need to worry about finding a specific left-handed knife. Nakiris are typically about 50:50 ground. Here are choil shots of my two nakiri (Kochi and Hitohero). As you can see, they're roughly symmetrical.

On another note, I don't think that Watanabe and Toyama nakiris are the same, as is the case with their gyutos. I've never used either, so I may be wrong, but they sure don't look the same to me.

Hitohero
20201227_083514~2.jpg


Kochi
20201227_083446~2.jpg
 
With the left handed thing not being an issue and the fact that my inexperience means I won't really know what I like until I start using some knives, I thought my best bet is to just buy something that I can find in stock and see what I think of it.

The knives that I like the look of that I have found available are.....

Yoshimi Kato Silver Steel No.3 165mm Nakiri Tsuchime Finish
Yoshimi Kato Blue Super Kurouchi Nakiri 170mm
Hinoura White Steel No.1 Kurouchi Series Nakiri 165mm
Yoshida Hamono ZDP-189 Kurouchi Nakiri
Kurosaki As Nakiri 165mm
Mazaki Shirogami#2 Nakiri 165mm Iron Clad
Masakage Zero Nakiri 165mm
Fujiwara Maboroshi Nakiri 165mm
Fujiwara Denka Nakiri 165mm
Takeda As Classic Nakiri 170mm


I don't know if all of those descriptions are sufficient for people to know exactly what knife they refer to, but I was hoping someone could suggest the best one to go for out of those. I realise that having already said I won't know what I like until I use it, it's impossible to know which is the best to go for, so I guess I'm really asking, which of these is highly regarded. Obviously there is quite a lot of price variation between them ranging from around £200 - >£400, so I'm probably not comparing like for like, but any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
I'm inclined to second Dave's suggestion of not skipping the gyuto so easily. Forget about the name for a second.. yes, it's called a cow's knife, and yes, a nakiri is called a vegetable cleaver, but that's more semantics; it doesn't mean a vegetarian can't buy a gyuto and should only look at nakiris. A gyuto is basically just the Japanese interpretation of the classic French chef's knife. It stuck around for this long and is being used all around the world because it works... and not just for meat.

Of course there's a lot of personal preference involved, but I think a lot of people here would lean to finding longer blades more useful than shorter ones. I had a Nakiri-ish blade and while I found it tons of fon for chopping small mushrooms into slices at high speed, I found it awkward for most other jobs. The lack of length and lack of a nimble tip can be somewhat limiting.

Being a lefty I'd at least take stuff with D-handles off the list. Some lefties adjust just fine to a misaligned D-handle, others don't, but since there's plenty of options wiht octagonal or oval handles I'd just get something like that for a safer bet for now.
Since you prefer less reactive I'd consider going for carbon core / stainless sides... it's the best of both worlds in a way.

If you want to try a nakiri without going all the way, it's worth looking at the Robert Herder Nakiri. Like everything from Robert Herder it's thin behind the edge and comes in a carbon option. Not the fanciest carbon, so it won't have gorund breaking edge retention, mundane looking handle, but easy as pie to sharpen and great for sharpening practise. They won't have the best food release, but for a fun chopper in the more laserish category they tick all the boxes.
Still in store here: Windmühlenmesser Japanische Formen von Robert Herder
 
Neofolis said:
The reason I wanted a Nakiri is that my current, cheap chef's knives are mainly used for chopping veg and it's rare that I use a rocking motion. If I had a Nakiri, it would be very infrequently that I would need to reach for one of my chef's knives. No doubt I would add a Gyuto to my line up, but I wanted my first knife to be the thing that I am likely to want to use most often.

I would prefer to try carbon steel, as the advantages seem to outweigh any disadvantages considerably. In the same that that the advantages of Japanese knives outweigh any disadvantages when compared with German knives.
Click to expand...
I’d guess maybe 80 pc of the members here use gyutos as our main knife for cutting vegetables. Very few of us rock. It’s helpful to have a tip.

the back 2/3 of a 210 gyuto is identical to a 165 Nakiri. Likewise 240-180. The front of the Nakiri is an afterthought, may as well paste a gyuto tip up there.

That’s why we all use gyutos. At this moment I have a 180 Nakiri languishing in my drawer.
 
I'll second folks saying that a gyuto is a better vegetable knife than a nakiri, names notwithstanding. Nakiri can be fun, but not having a thin tip is (IMO) frustrating for tasks like mincing garlic or shallots/onions. That's not to say that you couldn't get by just fine with the nakiri if you're really drawn to the shape, but a gyuto is a more versatile tool without really performing any worse than a nakiri at chopping veg.
 
I'm sure I will get a Gyuto at some point and it is probably a more sensible and definitely a more versatile choice for a first knife, but for whatever reason, probably looks, I am drawn to Nakiris. I still have my cheap, existing knives for anything I can't do with a Nakiri and given that I do everything with them at the moment, having the Nakiri won't stop me being able to do things.

This may be a criminal thing to say here, but I think I will end up being more of a knife collector than a user. I do enjoy cooking, but I don't use knives that frequently. Most of the cooking I do is baking deserts for which I often don't use any knives. That's not to say the knives I buy won't get used, but it will be fairly infrequently. I am more drawn to the craftsmanship of the knives and developing the skill of sharpening. At the moment there certainly seems to be more appeal to me in the idea of creating an amazingly sharp and precise edge on a knife than actually using the knife. I'm sure I will get enjoyment from using the knives as well, but I would like some of that enjoyment to come from the effort I have put in sharpening.
 
Well that simplifies things; just buy a Shun! ;)
 
I was initially looking at the Shun Premier range and my unsophisticated taste still likes the appearance of them, but I'm drawn to the craftsmanship of the handmade knives, plus I would prefer to support someone with a passion for their craft than a large corporation. I appreciate that the craftsman don't need my support with demand outstripping supply, but I want to develop my sharpening skills, so I want to form an attachment with the knives and care for them. I don't think I could do that with a mass produced piece of metal.
 
Neofolis said:
I'm sure I will get a Gyuto at some point and it is probably a more sensible and definitely a more versatile choice for a first knife, but for whatever reason, probably looks, I am drawn to Nakiris. I still have my cheap, existing knives for anything I can't do with a Nakiri and given that I do everything with them at the moment, having the Nakiri won't stop me being able to do things.

This may be a criminal thing to say here, but I think I will end up being more of a knife collector than a user. I do enjoy cooking, but I don't use knives that frequently. Most of the cooking I do is baking deserts for which I often don't use any knives. That's not to say the knives I buy won't get used, but it will be fairly infrequently. I am more drawn to the craftsmanship of the knives and developing the skill of sharpening. At the moment there certainly seems to be more appeal to me in the idea of creating an amazingly sharp and precise edge on a knife than actually using the knife. I'm sure I will get enjoyment from using the knives as well, but I would like some of that enjoyment to come from the effort I have put in sharpening.
Click to expand...
I foresee a custom bench scraper in your future! I hear they can be sharpened also.
 
Anyway, thanks to an answer on another thread, I think I have finally decided which knife to buy. I'm thinking the Hinoura White Steel No.1 Kurouchi Series Nakiri 165mm, because white steel is the easiest to sharpen, I'm hoping this will be a good knife to start my sharpening learning. It's probably not the best Nakiri, but it will be better than anything I currently own and I have to start somewhere.
 
Here's an idea...
Keep it local. Talk to Dan Prendergast. Maybe you'll get lucky and he could make a lefty nakiri for you? He used to be on the forums, but I'm not sure if he still is. Regardless, you could hit him up on IG or his website or drive over depending on where you are in the UK...
 
Neofolis said:
Well I finally took the plunge and bought this. I'll wait for it to arrive before deciding I should have got a Gyuto and looking for one of them.
Click to expand...
You actually might end up with a lefty after all! :)
I had a Hinoura I swore was lefty grind. I think one or two others here have also reported that they had hinouras that looked a little lefty-bias.
 
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