Need help troubleshooting every step to find out why my Victorinox Chef Knife can't cut paper

[Cifer]

Hello everyone,

I've been practicing sharpening for a few months on and off, and am completely puzzled as to what I am doing wrong.

Therefore, I'm making this thread to get detailed help troubleshooting every step so I know if the issue is that my edge isn't apexed, or that I am not deburring properly.

I'm mainly focusing on sharping a Victorinox Swiss Modern chef knife because it is supported to be easy to sharpen. I've also tried other cheaper knives, but the results are always the same.

I can barely get it to cut printer paper, and not nearly as well as when it came from the factory. I used to think the issue was that I didn't apex the edge, then started thinking the issue was a burr. Now I am confused again, because not matter what I do, I get the same result, and not even consistently.

Here is exactly what I do on a Shapton Pro 1000 whetstone:

- Mark the edge with sharpie and grind it off along the entire edge until the burr is formed (I check both with Mily fingers and a flashlight)

- Repeat on the other side

- Test if the edge catches on a plastic pen or a fingernail

- If it catches, continue with the normal sharpening motion using less and less pressure

- Finally, use stripping motions on the stone, either edge-leading with no pressure, or trailing with very light pressure

And then the sometimes can cut paper, sometimes not. And how well it cuts is also very inconsistent. I've tried deburring more aggressively using a cork or soft wood at the end, but that didn't change much.

Please share with me any reliable methods to determine at what stage I am messing up. I need a checklist of the most effective methods to test the blade before progressing with the next step to be absolutely certain I've done everything correctly so far.

A few specific question I have:

- What are foolproof methods to see whether I have apexed? I'm very, very confident that I always get a consistent burr on each side, which in my understanding guarantees an apex. However, it would be nice to verify. I don't see any reflections under a strong light source.

- How sharp should the edge feel when doing the three finger test after raising a burr on both sides? When I do it it feels rather sticky/toothy than smooth, but it doesn't completely stop my finger pads, and it doesn't feel like I'll be cutting myself easily. Is that good enough at this point, or should it already feel very sharp before deburring?

- What exact tests can I do to determine whether the edge is in principle sharp enough to cut paper before deburring? Is the edge catching on fingernails or pens enough?

- If I've ended up turning the factory edge into something closer to 17 degrees despite using the sharpie trick, I should still be able to cut paper perfectly if I do everything right, correct? And if I added a 20 degree micro bevel bevel it should also work just fine, I presume? I'm trying to figure out if angles matter at all here if they're consistent.

Thanks a lot, and let me know if you need any more information or specific photos (I only have a Pixel 7 camera though).

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Another possibility is repeatedly destroying your apex. This is, unfortunately, very common.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The difference between success and failure in sharpening is quite small. So that means it doesn't take much to mess up. But, on the upside it also means it doesn't take much to be successful. I'm referring to the edge itself.

First, you have the fundamental understanding of sharpening so that's good. You get the gist.

Second, I wouldn't call a Vic or other softer stainless "easy to sharpen". The internet loves to say that to people but it's not really true. Some people say it because they are coming from a point of reference of high carbide steels so they think something softer and easier to abrade should be easier. Others think that using cheaper knives is best because you don't have to worry about messing them up. Both notions are flawed. You have to work pretty hard to truly mess up a knife sharpening on a stone, especially a 1k. Further, soft stainless can really suck to sharpen. You'll find lots of here saying that. It doesn't take a crisp apex, can be terrible to deburr and can be easy to roll the edge.

An inexpensive shirogami or aogami can be an excellent way to learn. Check out sites like KnifeJapan.com.

Third, a 1k may be a little high for that steel and where you are at. You may need something coarser to rebuild the edge. For softer stainless, I'd recommend a plated diamond stone in something around 300-400 grit.

If you can truly feel a burr down the entire length, for the most part, you can say it is apexed. It is possible to raise a burr without apexing but no point in getting overly confused. So if you're truly apexing both sides it's either a deburring issue or as @azn_knives_4l said, you're messing up your work as you go. It is correct that this happens a lot and it is where I would start the troubleshooting. More time on the stones does not equal a better edge. More time on the stones equals more opportunity to mess up the edge.

I wouldn't mess with cork and wood and all that. I know you see that recommended a lot but I've never found it to actually be helpful. Just do your work on the stones and a strop if you choose one.

An edge can cut receipt paper and still slip slightly on your nail and not shave arm hair.

 

[ared715]

Yes I agree, when using stripping motions ona lower Grit bevel setter that's pretty aggressive like your 1k, if your stopping on stone angle isn't exactly on, you could be effecting the apex in a negative way. I've had success with similar knives finishing my 1k and stopping lightly on 2-3k or a natural Aoto or the like. This way, your finishing strokes with light pressure aren't removing as much metal.

 

[Rangen]

A couple of points.

You can't really test sharpness before deburring. If you're raising a burr on one side, then the other, all the way along the edge, then it's time to move on to deburring. However, you can look for whether you have an apex -- look straight down on the edge, in good light (sunlight is ideal), with magnification, and move things around a little to spot any reflections from the edge. If there are any, you are not apexed at that point.

Deburring can be a real bear with soft stainless. Lots of repetitions of low-pressure leading-edge strokes is good, but only one stroke per side. If you don't switch it up that frequently, you may just be raising a new burr. Learn to feel the burr, even when it gets tiny, so you can be sure it's gone on both sides. Just run a finger or thumb up the side of the knife, toward the edge, and feel for the tiny shelf.

Once you get close, you should be able to cut paper, and you should be able to feel, while cutting, where it's binding a bit, or not being smooth. Then feel for a burr on both sides of the knife in those areas.

One thing I used to do when I was starting out was to unconsciously raise my angle when sharpening. So I'd make a nice bevel on one side, and on the other side, I'd go past the apex and mess things up. Then repeat. I had to learn consistency of angle, but what really made the difference was adjusting my grip. Jon Broida's sharpening videos are a great reference for grip. I don't grip precisely like that, but those videos put me on the path to success.

 

[Cifer]

Thanks everyone!

Another possibility is repeatedly destroying your apex. This is, unfortunately, very common.

This is precisely why I want to focus on figuring out whether I have a proper apex. I know I've raised burrs on both sides because I can see and feel them, and I don't see a reflection, so maybe I should simply trust that there is an apex and focus on removing the burr gently.

The difference between success and failure in sharpening is quite small. So that means it doesn't take much to mess up. But, on the upside it also means it doesn't take much to be successful. I'm referring to the edge itself.

First, you have the fundamental understanding of sharpening so that's good. You get the gist.

Second, I wouldn't call a Vic or other softer stainless "easy to sharpen". The internet loves to say that to people but it's not really true. Some people say it because they are coming from a point of reference of high carbide steels so they think something softer and easier to abrade should be easier. Others think that using cheaper knives is best because you don't have to worry about messing them up. Both notions are flawed. You have to work pretty hard to truly mess up a knife sharpening on a stone, especially a 1k. Further, soft stainless can really suck to sharpen. You'll find lots of here saying that. It doesn't take a crisp apex, can be terrible to deburr and can be easy to roll the edge.

An inexpensive shirogami or aogami can be an excellent way to learn. Check out sites like KnifeJapan.com.

Third, a 1k may be a little high for that steel and where you are at. You may need something coarser to rebuild the edge. For softer stainless, I'd recommend a plated diamond stone in something around 300-400 grit.

If you can truly feel a burr down the entire length, for the most part, you can say it is apexed. It is possible to raise a burr without apexing but no point in getting overly confused. So if you're truly apexing both sides it's either a deburring issue or as @azn_knives_4l said, you're messing up your work as you go. It is correct that this happens a lot and it is where I would start the troubleshooting. More time on the stones does not equal a better edge. More time on the stones equals more opportunity to mess up the edge.

I wouldn't mess with cork and wood and all that. I know you see that recommended a lot but I've never found it to actually be helpful. Just do your work on the stones and a strop if you choose one.

An edge can cut receipt paper and still slip slightly on your nail and not shave arm hair.

I can raise a burr in just a few strokes on the 1000. Do you think a lower grit stone is still a good idea if I can get an apex within a few minutes? I'm not sure what exactly rebuilding the edge means, but the knife cuts paper somewhat, and it cuts food well enough, just not great.

I've heard over and over that there is no point in going to a higher grit stone before your edge is great ("the edge won't get any sharper"), but wouldn't it make sense to do just that if you're new and might simply be too harsh on the edge after apexing?

I'm really wondering if I should get a high grit stone and deburr on that in case I've been doing everything right all along and ruining it because I'm not good enough to deburr on a 1000 stone.

I'm not sure if it's worth order from JapanKnives from Europe, but what should a decent practice knife like you suggested cost?

A couple of points.

You can't really test sharpness before deburring. If you're raising a burr on one side, then the other, all the way along the edge, then it's time to move on to deburring. However, you can look for whether you have an apex -- look straight down on the edge, in good light (sunlight is ideal), with magnification, and move things around a little to spot any reflections from the edge. If there are any, you are not apexed at that point.

Deburring can be a real bear with soft stainless. Lots of repetitions of low-pressure leading-edge strokes is good, but only one stroke per side. If you don't switch it up that frequently, you may just be raising a new burr. Learn to feel the burr, even when it gets tiny, so you can be sure it's gone on both sides. Just run a finger or thumb up the side of the knife, toward the edge, and feel for the tiny shelf.

Once you get close, you should be able to cut paper, and you should be able to feel, while cutting, where it's binding a bit, or not being smooth. Then feel for a burr on both sides of the knife in those areas.

One thing I used to do when I was starting out was to unconsciously raise my angle when sharpening. So I'd make a nice bevel on one side, and on the other side, I'd go past the apex and mess things up. Then repeat. I had to learn consistency of angle, but what really made the difference was adjusting my grip. Jon Broida's sharpening videos are a great reference for grip. I don't grip precisely like that, but those videos put me on the path to success.

I'm sure my angles aren't great but in my understanding the knife should still cut at least printer paper unless you really mess up the angles. I'm applying sharpie pretty much nonstop and normally manage to get it off only where desired, so I don't think my angles are completely awful (I will upload a video at some point).

I've tried doing exactly what you describe - very light strokes and always checking where the burr currently is. But the problem is that when I stop feeling the burr - and even seeing it with a flashlight in a dark room - it still doesn't seem to cut well. At the same time I don't see any reflections from the tip of the edge either.

This is really my main issue. I've used all methods of inspecting the edge and testing its performance. All the visual and sensory clues say I'm doing it right (burr raised and visible, no reflection from the tip), but the performance isn't there.

I'm going to ask what I've already asked HumbleHomeCook above: Do you think getting a high grit stone to make deburring more lenient would be a terrible idea?

Almost all of the beginner tutorials not aimed at knife enthusiasts suggest deburring on a 6000 or so, but I've been told repeatedly that if you can't get your knife sharp on a 1000 or even 220 stone it won't get better on a higher grit.

 

[Rangen]

I can raise a burr in just a few strokes on the 1000. Do you think a lower grit stone is still a good idea if I can get an apex within a few minutes?

With soft stainless, yes.

I'm sure my angles aren't great but in my understanding the knife should still cut at least printer paper unless you really mess up the angles. I'm applying sharpie pretty much nonstop and normally manage to get it off only where desired, so I don't think my angles are completely awful

I was intending to describe how you could take off all the sharpie, and mess up the edge. Let me try again. Imagine that you have taken off all the Sharpie, and you have a perfect edge. Now do one more stroke, with the knife raised up 5-10 degrees. Just one stroke, on one side. What do you think will happen? I think it will destroy your apex and entirely negate all the good that came before it.

Almost all of the beginner tutorials not aimed at knife enthusiasts suggest deburring on a 6000 or so, but I've been told repeatedly that if you can't get your knife sharp on a 1000 or even 220 stone it won't get better on a higher grit.

Two different concepts there.

Concept 1: Sharpening on a higher grit stone is pointless if you don't have it properly sharp on a lower grit stone.
Concept 2: High grit stones are excellent for deburring.

However, I do not think high grit stones are good for deburring soft stainless, that hardest of sharpening challenges. You know what's perfect for sharpening and deburring a soft stainless knife? A 400 grit diamond stone. That extra nastiness that makes it a bit aggressive for sharpening good knives makes it excellent for abrading those persistent gummy soft stainless burrs.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I mentioned the lower grit stone as I wasn't sure if that through the course of experimenting your edge was at a point that it would be best to drop down and establish a fresh edge. If you're good with what you've got then you're probably fine. I'll confess to having developed a bias for coarser grit diamonds for soft stainless. It just seems to make life much easier. But, your 1k should work alright.

I do not think you need a higher grit stone, especially for a Vic. There is no point in it. That steel will not hold a more refined edge. When we talk about having good edges off low grit stones, it is correct and accurate. We cannot grit our way into sharpness. I know that seems counterintuitive right now but it's true. We have to establish the foundation of our edge on the lower grit. Now, that doesn't mean that that edge can't be refined, of course it can. But if it isn't properly set on the lower grit all a higher grit will do is make a bad edge polished.

A coarse edge can be ragged but it will cut. Higher grits can make it more keen and polished but they can't establish an edge. I'm working on some softer steel knives for a relative. I've done a large chef and a santoku for her so far and I stopped both on a 300 diamond followed by stropping on suede and green compound. That's more or less become my standard for these steels.

As for knives to learn on, I'm talking less than $100USD. I don't know if KnifeJapan is good for your location but here's a couple examples:

https://knifejapan.com/homi-kajiya-santoku-bocho-165mm-aogami-2/

https://knifejapan.com/kawatsu-hamono-funayuki-bocho-120mm-aogami-2/

These are rustic and iron clad but the core steel is good and they are practical knives. I own both of the above. Keep in mind, many of us find shorter knives a little harder to learn on so you might want to stay above 150 or so. Look around the site and see if something strikes you. If the fees work out and it makes sense of course.

We actually have quite a few members from your area. Maybe @JayS20 or @daddy yo yo can help with some suggestions of where to look.

 

[Cifer]

With soft stainless, yes.

I was intending to describe how you could take off all the sharpie, and mess up the edge. Let me try again. Imagine that you have taken off all the Sharpie, and you have a perfect edge. Now do one more stroke, with the knife raised up 5-10 degrees. Just one stroke, on one side. What do you think will happen? I think it will destroy your apex and entirely negate all the good that came before it.

Two different concepts there.

Concept 1: Sharpening on a higher grit stone is pointless if you don't have it properly sharp on a lower grit stone.
Concept 2: High grit stones are excellent for deburring.

However, I do not think high grit stones are good for deburring soft stainless, that hardest of sharpening challenges. You know what's perfect for sharpening and deburring a soft stainless knife? A 400 grit diamond stone. That extra nastiness that makes it a bit aggressive for sharpening good knives makes it excellent for abrading those persistent gummy soft stainless burrs.

Thank you!

Would an an agressive stone not ruin the edge more easily if you make a mistake?

The reason why I was thinking of a higher grit stone was that it's less likely to ruin the apex quickly if I make a few wrong strokes, even if it is a lot slower.

I really have no idea what to do at this point. I need to figure out if I'm destroying the edge while deburring, or if the edge is just bad in the first place.

I mentioned the lower grit stone as I wasn't sure if that through the course of experimenting your edge was at a point that it would be best to drop down and establish a fresh edge. If you're good with what you've got then you're probably fine. I'll confess to having developed a bias for coarser grit diamonds for soft stainless. It just seems to make life much easier. But, your 1k should work alright.

I do not think you need a higher grit stone, especially for a Vic. There is no point in it. That steel will not hold a more refined edge. When we talk about having good edges off low grit stones, it is correct and accurate. We cannot grit our way into sharpness. I that seems counterintuitive right now but it's true. We have to establish the foundation of our edge on the lower grit. Now, that doesn't mean that that edge can't be refined, of course it can. But if it isn't properly set on the lower grit all a higher grit will do is make a bad edge polished.

A coarse edge can be ragged but it will cut. Higher grits can make it more keen and polished but they can't establish an edge. I'm working on some steel knives for a relative. I've done a large chef and a santoku for her so far and I stopped both on a 300 diamond followed by stropping on suede and green compound. That's more or less become my standard for these steels.

As for knives to learn on, I'm talking less than $100USD. I don't know if KnifeJapan is good for your location but here's a couple examples:

https://knifejapan.com/homi-kajiya-santoku-bocho-165mm-aogami-2/

https://knifejapan.com/kawatsu-hamono-funayuki-bocho-120mm-aogami-2/

These are rustic and iron clad but the core steel is good and they are practical knives. I own both of the above. Keep in mind, many of us find shorter knives a little harder to learn on so you might want to stay above 150 or so. Look around the site and see if something strikes you. If the fees work out and such make sense of course.

We actually have quite a few members from your area. Maybe @JayS20 or @daddy yo yo can help with some suggestions of where to look.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm getting more confused about the entire edge sharpness though. Some people say you can't tell how sharp an edge is before deburring, while others say that a sharp edge will cut well even if it's messy.

If I have an clean apex and - in theory - held my angle perfectly, wouldn't the blade still struggle cutting paper, tomatoes, etc.?

I am not arguing that getting razor sharp blades off a 200 stone isn't possible for a good sharpener. But if the ability to cut paper and tomatoes requires removing the burr, then wouldn't removing the burr gently to not mess up the edge lead to a sharper knife in the hands of a beginner as opposed to removing the burr improperly and ruining the edge?

That a low grit stone might better to remove a burr even for a beginner as Rangen suggested is of course also a valid point.

How can I figure out whether my edge is fine before deburring when it's only possible to really assess after deburring? That is what is giving me a headache.

 

[FishmanDE]

I had a lot of trouble like this early on too. Practice doesn’t make perfect, it builds habits. That said, the more you sharpen, the better you will be.

It almost always comes down to maintaining angles, pressure and deburring for me. Make sure you keep whatever angle you’re doing (especially for final stropping). I’m right handed and I found while I felt I was using the same pressure on both sides, it was not the case. So feel the edge early and often (it’s the only way to tell what you’re doing!). This helps with deburring as well obviously.

But my personal biggest take away was LESS IS MORE. Less pressure, less time on the stones, less stropping. Someone once told me “never forget that you’re rubbing a piece of metal on a rock”. Keeping all of that in mind, I have improved significantly over the last year (mainly through trial and error). If I’m not having success, I put it down and come back to it later with fresh eyes.

I’ve found Vic’s easy to sharpen as far as stainless goes (almost a pleasure tbh). But that’s after making sure the geometry is there. Make sure it’s thinned behind the edge a bit. I’m sure you’ll figure it out!

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Regarding the 'don't go up until you've mastered the coarse stones' mentality... Just ignore. It's reductive to the point of absurdity and you can tell because these same people brag about their ability to use coarse stones-only for whatever edge test like it's a test of skill. You'll notice that *nobody* makes unqualified statements like that here. It gets extremely muddy, too, because some obviously beginner sharpeners make wild claims about anything and everything on some forums and the confusion is so bad that the *same* person will gas up burr-less sharpening in one post and the sharpness and 'toothiness' of their wire edges in another.

With that in the open, coarse(r) stones can and do help if your issue is reaching the apex with reasonable time/effort. On the other hand, any amount of inconsistency in angle or pressure can reset you back to zero in a single stroke when finishing and de-burring. Faster is not better when learning, regardless of what some YouTuber says, and this is true in topics from sharpening to driving to satisfying your partner. High grit finishing stones show this same issue of wrecking edges but for the reason of requiring an abundance of technique and skill over many, many strokes in a polishing progression and also that they're very often just wrong for the intended use or because the steel and heat treat can't adequately hold that finish.

You've had some excellent advice already and I don't have much to add there. Just wanted to clarify regarding thought processes on stone and abrasive selection when learning. There's some incredibly silly stuff being pushed on beginner sharpeners as one-size-fits-all solutions and pedagogy and it's hard to see through it all when so many authoritative or otherwise charismatic people preach illustrative examples as meaningful scientific models.

 

[mengwong]

to get detailed help troubleshooting every step so I know if the issue is that my edge isn't apexed, or that I am not deburring properly.

A few threads on KKF address the process/feedback question…

Most recent epic deburring thread:

I'm not sure if there's still a micro bevel or not

Fingernail and fingerpad tests, with blink-and-you’ll-miss-it speedrun video:

Though I do think that getting dialled in to some kind of finger and/or nail test is useful.

One school of thought prefers visual inspection:

Actually seeing the edge would be very educational and useful for a newbie.

Some people suggest jewelers loupes

There was a past post on this somewhere, and many dismissed using visuals for inspecting the edge. I used a little $30 usb microscope. I learned a ton looking at my edge, especially when compared to Andrei's perfect Markin edge! Wow! The Markin gave me perspective, and some ideas for improvement when compared to my edge work.

 

[hibbs00]

I would guess the burr is still there. I avoid wood and cork to remove a burr because it's likely to just smash the burr down rather than remove it. I'm a fan of high angle passes to remove a burr. You will definitely run into a "know it all" that will tell you this and that and if you don't do it their way you're wrong and won't even listen to anything else and act like they have the best edge when really, they can barely cut paper also.
I've run into 1 or 2 of those on other sites lol. Don't listen to those people.

I recommend trying a bunch of different ways and find one that works for you.
It's also possible you haven't fully apexed. I learned from someone here actually that a burr can form before the edge is apexed so inspect your edge carefully. The pattern should reach all the way to the apex. The person here suggests to get a loupe.
That will be the best way to check the edge.
You could be messing up the edge on those light passes. For me, at first, I had trouble holding the right angle with little pressure and an even harder time holding it with light stropping passes haha. I prefer edge leading to lower the chance of forming another burr.
All of that is what helped me anyways. Just have fun with it though man. It will all come with practice

 

[aporigine]

I recommend trying a bunch of different ways and find one that works for you.

this.

 

[Cifer]

Thanks everyone!

I will get a loupe and see if the pattern goes all the way to the edge. I've actually been wanting to get one for a while since I believe having both feedback from the fingertips and a close inspection of the edge would help me understand way better what is actually happening.

What amount of magnification do I need to do all the troubleshooting necessary? I've seen people say x10 is enough, while others say x20.

And what's the opinion here on loupes vs. USB microscopes?

 

[Cifer]

A few threads on KKF address the process/feedback question…

Most recent epic deburring thread:


Fingernail and fingerpad tests, with blink-and-you’ll-miss-it speedrun video:


One school of thought prefers visual inspection:

Thanks!

What I still don't understand is: does passing the fingernail test mean I have apexed? I never have trouble passing it, but I'm not sure if that's a foolproof way of ensuring that an apex has been created.

If that is indeed the case, then my issue is for sure burr removal.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Thanks everyone!

I will get a loupe and see if the pattern goes all the way to the edge. I've actually been wanting to get one for a while.

What amount of magnification do I need to do all the troubleshooting necessary? I've seen people say x10 is enough, while others say x20.

And what's the opinion here on loupes vs. USB microscopes?

I have a 30x/60x loupe and a Carson pocket microscope at 60x to 120x and recommend the pocket microscope. Better lighting, adjustable focus, and phone clip are so worthwhile. More than twice the cost on Amazon but that's $10 in absolute terms.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Thanks!

What I still don't understand is: does passing the fingernail test mean I have apexed? I never have trouble passing it, but I'm not sure if that's a foolproof way of ensuring that an apex has been created.

If that is indeed the case, then my issue is for sure burr removal.

Fingernail test isn't an absolute but more of a way to train your senses. A very wide range of edge quality will 'pass' the fingernail test.

 

[Cifer]

I have a 30x/60x loupe and a Carson pocket microscope at 60x to 120x and recommend the pocket microscope. Better lighting, adjustable focus, and phone clip are so worthwhile. More than twice the cost on Amazon but that's $10 in absolute terms.

Thank you.

So 60 isn't too much magnification for what I want to do?

By Carson x60 - x120 you mean the MicroBrite Plus, I presume?

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Thank you.

So 60 isn't too much magnification for what I want to do?

By Carson x60 - x120 you mean the MicroBrite Plus, I presume?

Not too much and that's the one. Looks like this. P400 sandpaper and 1 micron diamond paste on cardboard. Whittles hair and kills paper towel.

 

[Cifer]

Not too much and that's the one. Looks like this. P400 sandpaper and 1 micron diamond paste on cardboard. Whittles hair and kills paper towel.
View attachment 322589

Was this taken with a smartphone camera through a MicroBrite?

I dislike USB microscopes, but being able to share photos to get feedback would be good. Not sure if that's realistic with a MicroBrite.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Was this taken with a smartphone camera through a MicroBrite?

I dislike USB microscopes, but being able to share photos to get feedback would be good. Not sure if that's realistic with a MicroBrite.

That's exactly what this is, yes. Is a compromise but can be used like a loupe or USB scope. Very versatile.

 

[Cifer]

Quick update: I focused even more on the burr and used a basic magnifying glass. I realized there was still a minor burr. I used a much more agressive angle to deburr and stopped worrying about ruining the apex.

Now it cuts newspaper! I don't know if this is because I did everything right, or whether it's a wire edge. Am I correct in thinking that no matter which one it is, it means that the apex is intact? Or can you get a wide edge with a crushed apex?

If it's not a wire edge and cuts well it shouldn't be a problem (for durability, etc.) if I've ended up making the bevel more obtuse with my steeper deburring angle, correct? It's not a super thin Japanese knife so it always got stuck in food quite a bit.

And thanks a lot to everyone! I will provide a few photos once I receive the microscope to get some feedback - if I can manage to take photos through it.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Quick update: I focused even more on the burr and used a basic magnifying glass. I realized there was still a minor burr. I used a much more agressive angle to deburr and stopped worrying about ruining the apex.

Now it cuts newspaper! I don't know if this is because I did everything right, or whether it's a wire edge. Am I correct in thinking that no matter which one it is, it means that the apex is intact? Or can you get a wide edge with a crushed apex?

If it's not a wire edge and cuts well it shouldn't be a problem (for durability, etc.) if I've ended up making the bevel more obtuse with my steeper deburring angle, correct? It's not a super thin Japanese knife so it always got stuck in food quite a bit.

And thanks a lot to everyone! I will provide a few photos once I receive the microscope to get some feedback - if I can manage to take photos through it.

'Crushed' is a colloquial way to say rounded or flattened. You actually *can* have a burr and a crushed apex at the same time and it presents as burr hanging off the sides rather than at the apex. Apply lots of pressure with edge-leading strokes on a diamond plate and it'll be pretty obvious.

Micro-bevels are fine and the trick is to apply very minimally to maximize the geometry benefits of the lower angles on the edge bevels while stabilizing the very apex.

Test your edge on some food and the board? If it holds up then you're good to go and I think that's likely what you have here.

 

[hibbs00]

Quick update: I focused even more on the burr and used a basic magnifying glass. I realized there was still a minor burr. I used a much more agressive angle to deburr and stopped worrying about ruining the apex.

Now it cuts newspaper! I don't know if this is because I did everything right, or whether it's a wire edge. Am I correct in thinking that no matter which one it is, it means that the apex is intact? Or can you get a wide edge with a crushed apex?

If it's not a wire edge and cuts well it shouldn't be a problem (for durability, etc.) if I've ended up making the bevel more obtuse with my steeper deburring angle, correct? It's not a super thin Japanese knife so it always got stuck in food quite a bit.

And thanks a lot to everyone! I will provide a few photos once I receive the microscope to get some feedback - if I can manage to take photos through it.

Glad that seemed to help. How much more did you raise the angle?
If it has trouble going through food you will want to thin it out but I would worry about the edge first

 

[Benuser]

In addition only to the excellent suggestions you've already got just a few remarks.
A burr does not always mean you have reached the apex. A burr is likely to appear before the very edge got reached. With a marker and a loupe — 10-13X — you may check whether the bevel is entirely clean: no paint or debris on top. You will be surprised.
The Victorinox I've seen came with a very high sharpening angle, far above 20° per side. Nothing wrong with that, but it's likely you often have stayed behind the edge. Holding that high an angle isn't that easy, and the slightest variation makes you not to reach the very edge, or destroy the work made so far.
It may be helpful to use a piece of wood or cork cut in the corresponding sharpening angle, for reference.
I wouldn't use both edge trailing and and edge leading. Maintaining the exact sharpening angle in both motions is unlikely to happen. Better stay for the time being with edge leading only. And check with your loupe if you have touched the very edge along it's entire length. You may deburr in small sections: no elegant sweeping strokes, but short strokes — 1cm, 3/8" — only, enough to abrade the burr, insufficient to raise a new one.
I usually sharpen them with a Chosera 400, whose grit corresponds to the industrial standard JIS 600. If I'm well informed, the Shapton Pro 1k corresponds to some 700. So, that should be perfectly fine.

 

[Cifer]

'Crushed' is a colloquial way to say rounded or flattened. You actually *can* have a burr and a crushed apex at the same time and it presents as burr hanging off the sides rather than at the apex. Apply lots of pressure with edge-leading strokes on a diamond plate and it'll be pretty obvious.

Micro-bevels are fine and the trick is to apply very minimally to maximize the geometry benefits of the lower angles on the edge bevels while stabilizing the very apex.

Test your edge on some food and the board? If it holds up then you're good to go and I think that's likely what you have here.

Yes, I will simply see how the edge holds up after a few days of use. I don't see a burr with an x10 loupe shining a flashlight from the spine, so I think it's gone.

Glad that seemed to help. How much more did you raise the angle?
If it has trouble going through food you will want to thin it out but I would worry about the edge first

I have no idea. I simply looked at where the burr is, put the knife on the stone and raised the angle until the very tip of the bevel touched the stone, then raised it a tiny bit more and stropped without any pressure.

In addition only to the excellent suggestions you've already got just a few remarks.
A burr does not always mean you have reached the apex. A burr is likely to appear before the very edge got reached. With a marker and a loupe — 10-13X — you may check whether the bevel is entirely clean: no paint or debris on top. You will be surprised.
The Victorinox I've seen came with a very high sharpening angle, far above 20° per side. Nothing wrong with that, but it's likely you often have stayed behind the edge. Holding that high an angle isn't that easy, and the slightest variation makes you not to reach the very edge, or destroy the work made so far.
It may be helpful to use a piece of wood or cork cut in the corresponding sharpening angle, for reference.
I wouldn't use both edge trailing and and edge leading. Maintaining the exact sharpening angle in both motions is unlikely to happen. Better stay for the time being with edge leading only. And check with your loupe if you have touched the very edge along it's entire length. You may deburr in small sections: no elegant sweeping strokes, but short strokes — 1cm, 3/8" — only, enough to abrade the burr, insufficient to raise a new one.
I usually sharpen them with a Chosera 400, whose grit corresponds to the industrial standard JIS 600. If I'm well informed, the Shapton Pro 1k corresponds to some 700. So, that should be perfectly fine.

Thank you.

I applied sharpie very frequently, so I'm sure I got the edge, at least as far as I can tell by eye. The Swiss Modern has a factory angle of 21°. I tried to maintain that angle, but ended up sharpening a bit flatter than that. I have no idea what angle it is, but probably around 17.

The issue with angle guides (or cork, wood as you suggested) is that it matters where exactly you place it. It helps with maintaining the angle, but it will likely not be the one the angle guide is cut at.

I am considering buying an angle cube to get an idea of what angle I'm at from time to time. Not sure if that's a good idea, or what better methods there are.

Regarding the angle: Are you talking about stropping as well? I only sharped with a trailing edge. Stropping without pressure is the only thing I do with the edge leading. So far it is the only approach that has allowed me to get an edge that cuts newspaper, or even paper at all.

Does being slightly inconsistent with the angle matter much when applying no pressure and merely stropping five times each direction? I don't know what potential damage it can cause, but we will see how the edge holds up.

You suggest an x10 loupe to check for paint and debris. Would x60 be worse for that? I'm asking because I ordered an x60 - x120 microscope to check the edge and the scratch pattern. Not sure if that would be too much magnification to observe what you suggested.

 

[hibbs00]

I have no idea. I simply looked at where the burr is, put the knife on the stone and raised the angle until the very tip of the bevel touched the stone, then raised it a tiny bit more and stopped without any pressure.

That will work. Low pressure edge leading is what I would do.
For those really stubborn burrs you can do something like this. It helped me a lot. Still does.

 

[Benuser]

Yes, I will simply see how the edge holds up after a few days of use. I don't see a burr with an x10 loupe shining a flashlight from the spine, so I think it's gone.

I have no idea. I simply looked at where the burr is, put the knife on the stone and raised the angle until the very tip of the bevel touched the stone, then raised it a tiny bit more and stropped without any pressure.

Thank you.

I applied sharpie very frequently, so I'm sure I got the edge, at least as far as I can tell by eye.

Use of a loupe or any other magnifier will show you that an apparently clean bevel is likely to show plenty of paint and swarf on top of the old edge. So, the bevels don't meet and there's no apex.
One single edge trailing edge may be enough to destroy the apex and cut a new (micro)bevel, and result in a fresh burr on the other side.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Use of a loupe or any other magnifier will show you that an apparently clean bevel is likely to show plenty of paint and swarf on top of the old edge. So, the bevels don't meet and there's no apex.
One single edge trailing edge may be enough to destroy the apex and cut a new (micro)bevel, and result in a fresh burr on the other side.

This is an issue of process-oriented vs. results-oriented focus, imo. Edge-leading can screw the apex in ways that edge-trailing really can't and a small burr breaking away just doesn't matter much in the kitchen. Baby steps.