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toast

toast

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If there's a central thread where I should be posting this questionnaire, I must have missed it!

Like so many others, my time spent in my home kitchen has increased exponentially, and after long avoiding the inclination to dive down the knife rabbit hole, here we are. I'm trying to find a solid do-it-all knife to have as a kitchen companion. I have technical requirements (I've done my best to list them below), but I also recognize that there's an intangibility to the search for the perfect knife - I'm looking to find a knife that brings me joy when I use it, that has soul and character that can be appreciated of its own merit, rather than just judging the knife on performance alone.

LOCATION
  • Canada
KNIFE TYPE
  • Gyuto
  • Right handed
  • Wa handle
  • ~210mm. I'm a small human living in a small apartment
  • Carbon steel - looking for a knife that will change over time, and willing to put the work in. Very excited to develop a patina
  • $300-600. I don't feel like I need to spend $600, though I would be willing for the perfect knife. I recognize diminishing returns will set in at some point.
KNIFE USE
  • Home cook with only a bit of industry experience
  • Looking for a general purpose chef's knife, largely for vegetable prep and boneless meat
  • I am replacing a suite of battered Globals and a Shun 7" chefs knife
    • The Shun was bought on sale as an impulse, 'treat yourself!' buy - I've never bonded with it, the fit & finish is wonky and it has very little soul
  • Pinch grip
  • Primarily pushing and slicing, occasional rock chopping
  • I am looking for a knife to really enjoy using. It's a tool, sure, but it's also an object to bond with if the fit is right. I recognize that high-end Japanese knives represent bit of a bottomless well, and while I'm not looking to amass a collection, I'll admit that I am looking for the perfect knife beyond practical proficiency
    • I appreciate good fit & finish. Rounded spine & choil, nice blade finishes, etc are all important
    • I prefer simpler aesthetics, gravitating much more to a beautiful nashiji finish and a nice hamon over damascus blades and intricate handles
    • I will admit a preference for single piece or light-coloured octagonal handles, but that's absolutely not a necessity
    • I would prefer a light-to-medium knife, easy on the hands in a pinch grip and decently agile.
    • I enjoy slightly taller blades, but that's not a make-or-break
    • I have used a couple 'lasers', and while I don't need the thinest knife out there, I truly enjoy the thin-behind-the-edge feeling of having a knife cut seemingly only by its own weight
      • My knowledge of blade geometry is only starting to take shape, and I will admit to struggling to understand what a knife will feel like based on measurements alone
    • Edge retention is important to a degree but I enjoy sharpening at home and, as a home cook, won't be using the knife for high volume prep or the like
KNIFE MAINTENANCE
  • I use a maple cutting board
  • I sharpen my own knives - I'm a novice but I'm excited to continue to learn
  • I will need to invest in new stone(s) - my current ones are of poor quality and have seen better days
SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I have demo'd a few knives and done my best to get a sense of what's available (but wow are there a lot of knives out there) - here are my thoughts thus far.

I have tried out:
  • Konosuke GS+ 210mm
    • Enjoyed the simplicity and to a degree, the aesthetics. Veg prep felt effortless and the knife was light and responsive
    • The finish was not what I'm after, and the stainless blade isn't all that appealing
    • It lacked character compared to some of the knives I'm considering
    • The HD2 has been recommended but I worry that I would still have some of my above issues with it
  • Takeda NAS 210mm Gyuto
    • So much character. It was a charming knife to use
    • Blade height for days - made prep a dream
    • Finish was a bit crude, and I'd love a bit more exposed steel to develop a patina. I wish it was the AS version.
    • A bit big and odd to have as a single, go-to knife. I'm sure it would be wonderful alongside a more traditional Gyuto, but for now I'm trying to find the one
  • Fujiwara Gyuto (both Moboroshi & Denka)
    • Like the Takeda, so much character
    • Denka steel is super appealing, and the TF vibe is one I can get behind
    • The best feeling knife I handled. The choil allowed for a very comfortable, confident pinch grip
    • Polarizing but charming aesthetic, but iffy fit and finish as seems to be standard
    • Definitely trades charm for polish, and I'm not sure if it will be everything I want in a knife
    • Denka is the obvious winner of the two TF, but pricey
I've been doing my research on the following online, but haven't handled:
  • Konosuke HD2 or Sumiiro
    • My thoughts on these are above - a very practical choice but I am truly after a carbon knife, and something with a bit more character
  • Various Sakai Gyuto - I am attracted to the tradition, the blade shape, the general aesthetic, but am completely overwhelmed by the selection and the mystery shrouding the blacksmiths, sharpeners, etc. There's a lot to learn!
    • Hitohara Kikuchiyo Kyuzo, White #2
      • Affordable and on paper ticks most of the boxes
    • Kikumori Kikuzuji Kasumi, White #2
      • As above
    • Kikumori Choyo, White #2
      • Love the polish and, from what I've read, seems like a very interesting new line - though there seems to be limited info to go on
      • Possibly a bit too short at the heel
      • Am I paying a large premium for the F&F over similar options?
    • Hado Sumi, White #2 / Oul Aogami #2
      • Y Tanaka (I think?!), beautiful finishes and handle selections. Limited info to go on
      • From what I gather, the Hado & Oul knives are the same knives?
    • Hitohara Tanaka Kyuzo Migaki, Blue #1
      • Seems like a perfect option but pushes the budget
      • Very likely a nicer knife than I need - but that's a slippery slope argument if there ever was one, and probably misses the point
    • Yoshikazu Tanaka, White #1 Damascus
      • Same as my thoughts on the Hitohara Tanaka above
      • I don't love damascus but I do really like the proportions, grind and aesthetics of this knife broadly, especially the reasonably tall heel and the finish
    • Tanaka Stainless Clad Blue #2 Migaki from K&S
      • Upgraded F&F, awesome sounding grind
      • Well priced
      • Less thrilled about stainless cladding
And that's where I'm at! I have hit a point where there are just so many options that I'm a bit overwhelmed by the selection.

One more option - though less ideal, as it doesn't satisfy my minimalist tendencies - would be to pick up a more affordable Sakai Gyuto with a nice thin grind and a TF Moboroshi for a bit more heft and character.


Any and all advice is welcome - and thanks for having me!
 
You can reach out to Shihan directly for one of his 52100 knives. It hits all of your points except for the super thin behind the edge, but if you request, I'm sure he can grind it thinner for you. I don't consider a TF or Takeda super thin behind the edge, so if you are fine with either of those, then you probably aren't as picky as I am.

I've seen him use various handle materials, including lighter color ones. I'd ask what he has available.

I spoke with him on a couple occasions, and he seems like a great guy to work with.

https://www.shihanfineknives.com/test-products-page/240mm-gyuto
 
tostadas said:
You can reach out to Shihan directly for one of his 52100 knives.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll do some looking.

tostadas said:
I don't consider a TF or Takeda super thin behind the edge, so if you are fine with either of those, then you probably aren't as picky as I am.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I do either - not all the knives I listed fill my wish list perfectly, far from it! Just looking to narrow down what seems to be an ever-expanding list of options.
 
On the less expensive end, I think Hinoura is really nice value. They are very comfortable with tall heel and thick spine where the blade comes out of the handle. Grinds are not thin, but not super thick. Similar to a typical TF, or what I'd consider midweight. I found that if you take a bit of time and round off the spine and choil, you end up with a super comfortable knife. The 210mm hammer finished one I purchased from KnS a little while back was excellent and also took a cool looking patina.
hinoura.jpg
 
M1k3 said:
Grab something made from Yoshikane, Wakui, Kaeru or S. Tanaka. Good place to start falling down the rabbit hole.
Click to expand...
These are great recommendations. All are superstars. Though as wonderful as Yoshikanes are, might not be tall enough here.

Wakui seems like the most suitable fit IMO. Tall midlleweight with lovely distal taper. It’s super thin behind the edge and cuts like a laser. There are there are ss clad and iron clad versions.
 
If you're looking at Wakui... Knives & Stones Australia has some on offer on stupid cheap prices that make them very hard to resist. Would also tick most of your boxes I think. And with the teak handle + teak saya it's a nice looking combo too.
 
Jovidah said:
If you're looking at Wakui... Knives & Stones Australia has some on offer on stupid cheap prices that make them very hard to resist. Would also tick most of your boxes I think. And with the teak handle + teak saya it's a nice looking combo too.
Click to expand...
KnS Wakui is a nice knife and as mentioned, extremely good value. However the hammered versions are pretty beefy. Excellent food release workhorses. But not that thin. Quite different to the very thin hairline versions that one often thinks of when Wakui is mentioned. I am unsure whether the Nashiji/ Ku versions are thin or thick.

The Tanaka Migaki is thin but not quite a laser. Mine has a little convexity to the blade face. The profile on mine is flatter than the Tanaka Nashiji. It reminds me of the Akebono profile (a great thing). I really like my 210, even though it's shorter than my preferred length.

I also reckon you ought have a squizz (a look) at Yosikane Nashiji (mine is Amekiri although Hatsukokoro is said to be similarly thin), although as mentioned, they are not that tall.
 
tag98 said:
Where abouts are you located? Maybe going into a store and handling some of the mentioned knives would be helpful
Click to expand...

I listed the knives I’ve checked out in person in my post. Handling knives in person has been very helpful in figuring out what to buy, though handling them is far from actually using them.
 
Back to reality, I agree with @JaVa , wakui sounds like a good match for you.

As you noted, until you use them it’s hard to form an opinion. I always wonder about knives people resell that they say they only cut one carrot. How could you know? If I based my opinion of my wakui on one carrot, I would have sold it. Now it’s one of my favorites and I have three from that maker.
 
rickbern said:
Back to reality, I agree with @JaVa
As you noted, until you use them it’s hard to form an opinion. I always wonder about knives people resell that they say they only cut one carrot. How could you know? If I based my opinion of my wakui on one carrot, I would have sold it. Now it’s one of my favorites and I have three from that maker.
Click to expand...

That’s the plan. Might end up buying a couple to see what feels right, but I’ll certainly need more than a carrot or two to figure it out.
 
Maybe check out Takada Suiboko, some of them are made by Y. Tanaka. Maybe the legendary Konosuke Fujiyama FM?
 
rickbern said:
Back to reality, I agree with @JaVa , wakui sounds like a good match for you.

As you noted, until you use them it’s hard to form an opinion. I always wonder about knives people resell that they say they only cut one carrot. How could you know? If I based my opinion of my wakui on one carrot, I would have sold it. Now it’s one of my favorites and I have three from that maker.
Click to expand...

This has come up before and ime, for me, the first thing I'll cut up is a qt or two of mire points. From there I'm about 90% certain on future of knife.
 
daveb said:
This has come up before and ime, for me, the first thing I'll cut up is a qt or two of mire points. From there I'm about 90% certain on future of knife.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but Dave, you’re a pro, you use a knife all day long and you know exactly what you’re looking for. For me, I could learn to love a lot of knives. I’ve never used anything as stout as a Toyama or wantanabe, it would probably take me a few days to know if I’d like it. It’s different for someone who comes home and makes dinner a couple of times a week.
 
IMO @tostadas has the two best recommendations in the thread with Shi.Han (best overall knife) and Hinoura hammered (best value IMO). But with the latter IMO you do need some real sharpening skills as mine was transformed from only 'ok' to 'holy ****' when I put it down on the stones and ground off the stock finish, raised the shinogi slightly and rounded the shoulders. My hammered 210 is now my most used knife (along with one of my Shi.Han 52100s 240s when I need something bigger/weightier).

Takada, Tanaka x Yohei/Myojin/otherfull convex grinder, Togashi convex are all great choices too but are more or less the same price as a Shi.Han 52100 and I just prefer the Shi.Han even though theyre all top flight stuff.

It's worth noting a Shi.Han is a MUCH bigger knife than a Sakai with the same stated length in practice.
 
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