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hibbs00

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https://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/Jura...irst, do a good job,edges with your fine hone.

I'm sure most of you have probably read this but what is everyone's opinion? Also, is he basically saying to thin the edge until you form a burr (at 11 degrees I think he said) and then raise to the 22.5 degree for alternating passes on the fine hone? Or is he talking about still sharpening at 22.5 degrees until a burr and then raise the edge on the fine hone? I'm not quite sure on that. Still would like to hear everyone's opinions though on the whole thing.
 
jacobwilder5 said:
I just skimmed it but this just looks like a micro bevel. Jon can explain it better than me.

Click to expand...

Do you take it as sharpen at 11 degrees and micro bevel at 22.5 or to thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then micro bevel? Also, what about his take on using a dry stone vs an oil/water stone?
M1k3 said:
Sounds a lot like Cliff Stamp's plateau sharpening.
Click to expand...
It sounds very similar to me but still different. He's talking about raising burrs. Do you take it as sharpen at 11 degrees and then 22.5 or to thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then remove the burr? Also, what about his take on using a dry stone vs an oi/water stone?
 
hibbs00 said:
Do you take it as sharpen at 11 degrees and micro bevel at 22.5 or to thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then micro bevel? Also, what about his take on using a dry stone vs an oil/water stone?

It sounds very similar to me but still different. He's talking about raising burrs. Do you take it as sharpen at 11 degrees and then 22.5 or to thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then remove the burr? Also, what about his take on using a dry stone vs an oi/water stone?
Click to expand...

I take it as sharpen at 11 until you raise a burr then go to a higher angle at 22.5.

Depending on how thin your knife is behind the edge that may require thinning and removing a decent amount of metal to get to where you raise a burr at 11. If it’s already thin enough that burr should come quick with little metal removal.

You could hypothetically stop there and deburr and have a nice cutting edge. 11 degrees is on the lower end and the lower you go the weaker the edge is to chipping or folding. Based how you use it would be my determination whether or not to apply a second edge or micro bevel. I would just be adding it for edge strength though and not for cutting performance.
 
hibbs00 said:
Do you take it as sharpen at 11 degrees and micro bevel at 22.5 or to thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then micro bevel? Also, what about his take on using a dry stone vs an oil/water stone?

It sounds very similar to me but still different. He's talking about raising burrs. Do you take it as sharpen at 11 degrees and then 22.5 or to thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then remove the burr? Also, what about his take on using a dry stone vs an oi/water stone?
Click to expand...
Option 2.

I don't have any scientific take on the stone being dry vs wet. It does make sense that there's no fluid for a piece of sharpening grit or steel to be suspended in, therefore no debris hitting the apex.
 
jacobwilder5 said:
I take it as sharpen at 11 until you raise a burr then go to a higher angle at 22.5.

Depending on how thin your knife is behind the edge that may require thinning and removing a decent amount of metal to get to where you raise a burr at 11. If it’s already thin enough that burr should come quick with little metal removal.

You could hypothetically stop there and deburr and have a nice cutting edge. 11 degrees is on the lower end and the lower you go the weaker the edge is to chipping or folding. Based how you use it would be my determination whether or not to apply a second edge or micro bevel. I would just be adding it for edge strength though and not for cutting performance.
Click to expand...
Deburring with alternating edge leading passes wouldn't be enough of a micro bevel? I suppose not if it's only a couple passes. He says to only deburr with a higher angle only on the fine stone. What if you only had 1 stone like an 800 grit? Would that still work?
M1k3 said:
Option 2.

I don't have any scientific take on the stone being dry vs wet. It does make sense that there's no fluid for a piece of sharpening grit or steel to be suspended in, therefore no debris hitting the apex.
Click to expand...
He makes a really good point, does it damage water stones to use them dry? He talks about raising the angle only on the fine stone. What if all you had is an 800 grit or something? Would that still work you think?
 
jacobwilder5 said:
I take it as sharpen at 11 until you raise a burr then go to a higher angle at 22.5.
Click to expand...
And the 22.5 is the microbevel.

From the article:

1710050415747.gif


Translating from 1977 to 2024,

Thin with a 220 or 320 or Crystolon etc, anywhere from 0° to 11°

Deburr with the coarse stone, or the fine stone if you have a way to make that work

Microbevel with a 1000 or 2000 or higher, at around 22.5. This should not take more than a minute or two at light pressure.

(My comment: If your fine stone is north of 4K you are unlikely to raise a massive new burr and can easily strop to desired keenness.)
 
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mengwong said:
And the 22.5 is the microbevel.

From the article:

View attachment 306758

Translating from 1977 to 2024,

Thin with a 220 or 320 or Crystolon etc, anywhere from 0° to 11°

Deburr with the coarse stone, or the fine stone if you have a way to make that work

Microbevel with a 1000 or 2000 or higher, at around 22.5. This should not take more than a minute or two at light pressure.

(My comment: If your fine stone is north of 4K you are unlikely to raise a massive new burr and can easily strop to desired keenness.)
Click to expand...
I took the article as sharpen/thin at 11 degrees until you get a burr on both sides on your coarse stone then take your fine stone and raise the angle doing alternating edge leading passes at low pressure for a few passes
 
hibbs00 said:
Deburring with alternating edge leading passes wouldn't be enough of a micro bevel? I suppose not if it's only a couple passes. He says to only deburr with a higher angle only on the fine stone. What if you only had 1 stone like an 800 grit? Would that still work?

He makes a really good point, does it damage water stones to use them dry? He talks about raising the angle only on the fine stone. What if all you had is an 800 grit or something? Would that still work you think?
Click to expand...
It doesn't damage them. There's just no lubrication, so all the swarf will fill the little holes quickly, rather than washing away.
 
mengwong said:
Yeah. That fits with all the other advice that’s been going around.
Click to expand...
Would you do the same thing if your only stone was something like an 800? Deburr at a higher on that too? What is your thought on the dry stone vs oil/water stone?
M1k3 said:
It doesn't damage them. There's just no lubrication, so all the swarf will fill the little holes quickly, rather than washing away.
Click to expand...
Can you keep using the stone after it's clogged up?
 
hibbs00 said:
Deburring with alternating edge leading passes wouldn't be enough of a micro bevel? I suppose not if it's only a couple passes. He says to only deburr with a higher angle only on the fine stone. What if you only had 1 stone like an 800 grit? Would that still work?
Click to expand...

Yeah I think you’ll need more than just a few passes for a microbevel. It really is a secondary edge that would need to apex. My understanding is that applying a microbevel at the end of your sharpening is meant to both deburr and create that secondary edge.

You could do all this on one stone but I think it’s less effective with this two edge method. This is basically calling you to thin the knife first and then apply a microbevel. If you need to move a lot of metal that first time it won’t be fun on a mid grit. Also, you’d probably create another decent size burr on that second edge if you’re not using a higher grit stone.

If I had just one mid grit stone I’d just do a single edge around 12-15’ and play with the angle of your edge to get it where you want. Take it as low as possible until it starts to chip or fold. Then just ratch it up slightly until you find your sweet spot.

My opinion is to not go for a specific angle but just test and tweak based on what the knife gives you. I actually have no idea what angle I sharpen at. I’m guessing I’m usually in that 12-15 range for kitchen knives but I’ve never measured it. I just know from playing with the angle that if I go much lower the edge starts to fail.
 
jacobwilder5 said:
Yeah I think you’ll need more than just a few passes for a microbevel. It really is a secondary edge that would need to apex. My understanding is that applying a microbevel at the end of your sharpening is meant to both deburr and create that secondary edge.

You could do all this on one stone but I think it’s less effective with this two edge method. This is basically calling you to thin the knife first and then apply a microbevel. If you need to move a lot of metal that first time it won’t be fun on a mid grit. Also, you’d probably create another decent size burr on that second edge if you’re not using a higher grit stone.

If I had just one mid grit stone I’d just do a single edge around 12-15’ and play with the angle of your edge to get it where you want. Take it as low as possible until it starts to chip or fold. Then just ratch it up slightly until you find your sweet spot.

My opinion is to not go for a specific angle but just test and tweak based on what the knife gives you. I actually have no idea what angle I sharpen at. I’m guessing I’m usually in that 12-15 range for kitchen knives but I’ve never measured it. I just know from playing with the angle that if I go much lower the edge starts to fail.
Click to expand...
Currently I'll sharpen around a 15 degree angle, raise a burr on both sides and repeat until the burr will flip sides on a single pass. Then go to higher grit and repeat before cross hatching the grit pattern for burr minimization and raise the angle with extremely low pressure, alternating edge leading passes to deburr on whatever my last stone is. That's why I'm curious about this method. My wusthof knife a lot of people here told me not to go past my 1k stone for that knife so basically only use one stone on that unless I need to thin and use my SP220. Otherwise I only use the 1k for it. Same deburring method
 
hibbs00 said:
Would you do the same thing if your only stone was something like an 800? Deburr at a higher on that too? What is your thought on the dry stone vs oil/water stone?

Can you keep using the stone after it's clogged up?
Click to expand...
Yes you can. It'll act slower and finer, especially if you allow it to really build up.
 
hibbs00 said:
Currently I'll sharpen around a 15 degree angle, raise a burr on both sides and repeat until the burr will flip sides on a single pass. Then go to higher grit and repeat before cross hatching the grit pattern for burr minimization and raise the angle with extremely low pressure, alternating edge leading passes to deburr on whatever my last stone is. That's why I'm curious about this method. My wusthof knife a lot of people here told me not to go past my 1k stone for that knife so basically only use one stone on that unless I need to thin and use my SP220. Otherwise I only use the 1k for it. Same deburring method
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think you’ll get similar results as it relates to sharpness honestly using your method.

The main benefit I see to his method is less about the honing/deburring and more about what he calls relief but it’s basically just making sure the knife is consistently thin behind the edge every time you sharpen. This will increase cutting performance and even prolong how long a knife feels “sharp”, simply due to geometry. A lot of knives are super thick behind the edge and benefit a ton from thinning even the first few millimeters.

Have you thinned your wusthof?
 
jacobwilder5 said:
Yeah, I think you’ll get similar results as it relates to sharpness honestly using your method.

The main benefit I see to his method is less about the honing/deburring and more about what he calls relief but it’s basically just making sure the knife is consistently thin behind the edge every time you sharpen. This will increase cutting performance and even prolong how long a knife feels “sharp”, simply due to geometry. A lot of knives are super thick behind the edge and benefit a ton from thinning even the first few millimeters.

Have you thinned your wusthof?
Click to expand...
I attempted it 2 sharpenings ago. I didn't do a great job at it though but it slices paper towel and push cut paper when I did. I'm thinking about adopting this guys method so it does stay constantly thin BTE
 
hibbs00 said:
I'm sure most of you have probably read this but what is everyone's opinion?
Click to expand...
A read through this chapter makes me think he’s an amateur with delusions of grandeur. There’s much better information out there and this guide will generally be misleading.

Edit: ok it’s from popular science magazine. Trying to learn sharpening from this article will be like trying to learn to pick up women by reading Men’s Health.
 
Like so many things in this hobby, people use the same term in different ways. I consider a micro-bevel to be very few, very light passes. Others, as shown, consider it more of a secondary edge.

If you take out the angles, that basis of what is being described isn't new or radical. It's say to thin your knife, in this case to a "zero edge" and then add a higher angle cutting edge. That's what pretty much the gist of all sharpening.

Also, unless you're using a fixed jig system, you're going to need an angle cube and a LOT of practice to feel 11 and 22.5 degrees.
 
captaincaed said:
A read through this chapter makes me think he’s an amateur with delusions of grandeur. There’s much better information out there and this guide will generally be misleading.

Edit: ok it’s from popular science magazine. Trying to learn sharpening from this article will be like trying to learn to pick up women by reading Men’s Health.
Click to expand...
His book is a bit more detailed but isn't this just a quick version of what most people say anyways? Keep your knife thin, raise a burr so you know you're apexed, remove the burr. His method just seems to help keep the knife constantly thin BTE. Only thing really different is his theory on dry stones and not everyone likes a micro bevel.
HumbleHomeCook said:
Like so many things in this hobby, people use the same term in different ways. I consider a micro-bevel to be very few, very light passes. Others, as shown, consider it more of a secondary edge.

If you take out the angles, that basis of what is being described isn't new or radical. It's say to thin your knife, in this case to a "zero edge" and then add a higher angle cutting edge. That's what pretty much the gist of all sharpening.

Also, unless you're using a fixed jig system, you're going to need an angle cube and a LOT of practice to feel 11 and 22.5 degrees.
Click to expand...
I believe he sells a fixed jig of some sort but I'm sure it's just with any sharpening angle, get it around that angle and you should be fine, doesn't have to be exact, right?
 
M1k3 said:
Some stones you can use the scrubby side of a sponge. But most you'll have to lap.
Click to expand...
Awesome. I'm thinking I would still get it wet for most of the sharpening until I do the micro bevel, then I can just take a towel and mostly dry it out something. It's worth a shot I guess. See if it's any better. Thank you!
 
M1k3 said:
Option 2.

I don't have any scientific take on the stone being dry vs wet. It does make sense that there's no fluid for a piece of sharpening grit or steel to be suspended in, therefore no debris hitting the apex.
Click to expand...
There was a cool article in Scientific American maybe forty years ago about the effect of cutting fluids on machining steel. It involved the angle at which the tool engaged the workpiece. There was an angle at which the action of the tool transitioned from simply deforming the steel to cutting a chip.

Dry, that angle was rather acute. Various cutting fluids supported cutting at less acute angles, with light hydrocarbons faring well. The extreme was carbon tetrachloride, which cut chips at an obtuse (100°!) angle.

Carbon tet is waay too toxic for such use. Water worked to improve cutting. That’s why wet sandpaper is superior to dry when removing metal, and why I won’t use a dry stone unless I was outdoors and had to make do.
 
What does everyone think about the steel how it supposedly moves the metal to look as of it were molten giving it a superior edge?
 
I was thinking about the dry stone thing. If you just keep your stone clean with water you’ll clear the swarf and the metal won’t impact the edge.

Also, I think he’s conflating that a dry stone means a better edge. If it makes the stone finer when you run it dry over time then you’ll get a cleaner edge sure, but it’s the same result as just moving up in grit without losing cutting power by running it dry.
 
hibbs00 said:
His book is a bit more detailed but isn't this just a quick version of what most people say anyways? Keep your knife thin, raise a burr so you know you're apexed, remove the burr. His method just seems to help keep the knife constantly thin BTE. Only thing really different is his theory on dry stones and not everyone likes a micro bevel.
Click to expand...
That bit is fine, but he's making other claims that are based on folktales, making assertions without evidence, and, as you said, he's selling something sharpening related. He's also trying to be an expert, and just leaves so much out.

Not to say he's 100% full of BS, but there's enough BS and lack of nuance mixed in that I feel comfortable just passing on this as a resource so I don't have to unlearn something later. I don't really want to pick on the guy too much since he's trying, but here's a section I really did roll my eyes at.

In North America we usually use oil on sharpening stones; in the rest of the world they use water.
  • Except the UK commonly uses oil, Turkey/Cretan stones are the same
  • In North America we use water, windex, other lubricants, etc.
Tests by John Juranitch show that because oil carries the dross against the edge, better results are obtained with a dry stone.
  • Any swarf on the stone can impact the edge, regardless of honing fluid or lack of it
However, natural stones tend to clog without oil.
  • What types of stones? Arkansas? Which flavor of Arkansas? The translucent stones are so dense you can used then with whatever fluid you want, and change the type of fluid every honing session and Bob's your uncle. What about Charnley forest? Slate? Coticule? Phyllite? Many are preferred with water.
I prefer ceramic and diamond stones used dry, and my second choice is Japanese waterstones.
  • Good for him. But for what task? Thinning or making an edge? What stage of sharpening? He advocates thinning and apexing, so....
I'll leave this up to your personal preference,
  • We agree on something
with the following guidance.
  • Uh oh
With India and bonded Arkansas stones you can use oil or use them dry.
  • I wouldn't
Clean them with paint thinner.
  • I wouldn't
Use and clean Japanese waterstones only with water, but store them dry and soak them before using.
  • Magnesia bonded stones (notably Shapton glass) will disintegrate when soaked in water. Denser, finer synthetic stones will often break apart when soaked, and only need the surface covered in water.
  • Beyond that, ask a Jnat user what happens when they soaked their favorite finishing stone in water overnight. Tears is what happened.
Ceramic and diamond stones can be used dry or with water. Clean them with water and scouring powder when necessary. Washita and natural Arkansas stones can be used with oil, water or dry, and cleaned accordingly.
  • Not bad.
If you have used water on a stone and want to change to oil, let it dry thoroughly, and then oil it. Once you have used oil on a stone, it is difficult to change back.
  • Again, what type of stone? I go between water and oil on translucent Arks regularly. Same with coticules. I avoid oil for slates like thuringians. The details matter.

Lastly this:
1710093196272.png

"Thus for a chisel, A would be best. For a knife designed to do everything from cutting rope to opening 55-gallon drums, B is a good choice. But for a professional meat cutter and most of your kitchen, hunting, and pocket knives, taper back to C."

Who thinks a chisel is ground like this?
  • A is best for meat where you're working on bone and general butchery.
  • B is good for general duty, hunting, pocket knives, etc. Some chisels too.
  • C is good for boneless meats and veg. Finer chisels might be ground here.
  • None is good for opening 55 gallon drums, that's what crowbars are for.
 
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