Opinions on "secrets of sharp"?

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mengwong said:
And the 22.5 is the microbevel.

From the article:

View attachment 306758
Click to expand...
This is similar to Sal Glesser's (Spyderco) Sharpmaker for EDC knives. It sets what he calls a "Back Bevel" at 15 degrees per side, then finishes with what he calls the "Edge Bevel" at 20 degrees per side. Makes a sharp and durable edge for EDC use.
 
captaincaed said:
That bit is fine, but he's making other claims that are based on folktales, making assertions without evidence, and, as you said, he's selling something sharpening related.

Not to say he's 100% full of BS, but there's enough BS and lack of nuance mixed in that I feel comfortable just passing on this as a resource so I don't have to unlearn something later.

I don't really want to pick on the guy too much since he's trying, but here's a section I really did roll my eyes at.

In North America we usually use oil on sharpening stones; in the rest of the world they use water.
  • Except the UK commonly uses oil, Turkey/Cretan stones are the same
  • In North America we use water, windex, other lubricants, etc.
Tests by John Juranitch show that because oil carries the dross against the edge, better results are obtained with a dry stone.
  • Any swarf on the stone can impact the edge, regardless of honing fluid or lack of it
However, natural stones tend to clog without oil.
  • What types of stones? Arkansas? Which flavor of Arkansas? The translucent stones are so dense you can used then with whatever fluid you want, and change the type of fluid every honing session and Bob's your uncle. What about Charnley forest? Slate? Coticule? Phyllite? Many are preferred with water.
I prefer ceramic and diamond stones used dry, and my second choice is Japanese waterstones.
  • Good for him. But for what task? Thinning or making an edge? What stage of sharpening? He advocates thinning and apexing, so....
I'll leave this up to your personal preference,
  • We agree on something
with the following guidance.
  • Uh oh
With India and bonded Arkansas stones you can use oil or use them dry.
  • I wouldn't
Clean them with paint thinner.
  • I wouldn't
Use and clean Japanese waterstones only with water, but store them dry and soak them before using.
  • Magnesia bonded stones (notably Shapton glass) will disintegrate when soaked in water. Denser, finer synthetic stones will often break apart when soaked, and only need the surface covered in water.
  • Beyond that, ask a Jnat user what happens when they soaked their favorite finishing stone in water overnight. Tears is what happened.
Ceramic and diamond stones can be used dry or with water. Clean them with water and scouring powder when necessary. Washita and natural Arkansas stones can be used with oil, water or dry, and cleaned accordingly.
  • Not bad.
If you have used water on a stone and want to change to oil, let it dry thoroughly, and then oil it. Once you have used oil on a stone, it is difficult to change back.
  • Again, what type of stone? I go between water and oil on translucent Arks regularly. Same with coticules. I avoid oil for slates like thuringians. The details matter.

Lastly this:
View attachment 306862
"Thus for a chisel, A would be best. For a knife designed to do everything from cutting rope to opening 55-gallon drums, B is a good choice. But for a professional meat cutter and most of your kitchen, hunting, and pocket knives, taper back to C."

Who thinks a chisel is ground like this?
  • A is best for meat where you're working on bone and general butchery.
  • B is good for general duty, hunting, pocket knives, etc. Some chisels too.
  • C is good for boneless meats and veg. Finer chisels might be ground here.
  • None is good for opening 55 gallon drums, that's what crowbars are for.
Click to expand...
Besides the dry stone thing his style is similar to mine and I get the sharpest edge this way vs all the other styles I've tried. Also very similar to Cliff Stamp and his style so there's something about it that works. I'm more interested in the steel claim, dry stone claim that he has pictures for and if I was understanding him right about thinning around 11 degrees and then raise the angle to 22.5 on the fine stone or if he meant thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then raise the angle and since most have told me to not use my 6k stone on the wusthof if just raising my angle to deburr on the 6k would work or if it's still better to just deburr on the 1k
 
Koop said:
This is similar to Sal Glesser's (Spyderco) Sharpmaker for EDC knives. It sets what he calls a "Back Bevel" at 15 degrees per side, then finishes with what he calls the "Edge Bevel" at 20 degrees per side. Makes a sharp and durable edge for EDC use.
Click to expand...
Do you have a link to that?
 
captaincaed said:
That bit is fine, but he's making other claims that are based on folktales, making assertions without evidence, and, as you said, he's selling something sharpening related. He's also trying to be an expert, and just leaves so much out.

Not to say he's 100% full of BS, but there's enough BS and lack of nuance mixed in that I feel comfortable just passing on this as a resource so I don't have to unlearn something later. I don't really want to pick on the guy too much since he's trying, but here's a section I really did roll my eyes at.

In North America we usually use oil on sharpening stones; in the rest of the world they use water.
  • Except the UK commonly uses oil, Turkey/Cretan stones are the same
  • In North America we use water, windex, other lubricants, etc.
Tests by John Juranitch show that because oil carries the dross against the edge, better results are obtained with a dry stone.
  • Any swarf on the stone can impact the edge, regardless of honing fluid or lack of it
However, natural stones tend to clog without oil.
  • What types of stones? Arkansas? Which flavor of Arkansas? The translucent stones are so dense you can used then with whatever fluid you want, and change the type of fluid every honing session and Bob's your uncle. What about Charnley forest? Slate? Coticule? Phyllite? Many are preferred with water.
I prefer ceramic and diamond stones used dry, and my second choice is Japanese waterstones.
  • Good for him. But for what task? Thinning or making an edge? What stage of sharpening? He advocates thinning and apexing, so....
I'll leave this up to your personal preference,
  • We agree on something
with the following guidance.
  • Uh oh
With India and bonded Arkansas stones you can use oil or use them dry.
  • I wouldn't
Clean them with paint thinner.
  • I wouldn't
Use and clean Japanese waterstones only with water, but store them dry and soak them before using.
  • Magnesia bonded stones (notably Shapton glass) will disintegrate when soaked in water. Denser, finer synthetic stones will often break apart when soaked, and only need the surface covered in water.
  • Beyond that, ask a Jnat user what happens when they soaked their favorite finishing stone in water overnight. Tears is what happened.
Ceramic and diamond stones can be used dry or with water. Clean them with water and scouring powder when necessary. Washita and natural Arkansas stones can be used with oil, water or dry, and cleaned accordingly.
  • Not bad.
If you have used water on a stone and want to change to oil, let it dry thoroughly, and then oil it. Once you have used oil on a stone, it is difficult to change back.
  • Again, what type of stone? I go between water and oil on translucent Arks regularly. Same with coticules. I avoid oil for slates like thuringians. The details matter.

Lastly this:
View attachment 306862
"Thus for a chisel, A would be best. For a knife designed to do everything from cutting rope to opening 55-gallon drums, B is a good choice. But for a professional meat cutter and most of your kitchen, hunting, and pocket knives, taper back to C."

Who thinks a chisel is ground like this?
  • A is best for meat where you're working on bone and general butchery.
  • B is good for general duty, hunting, pocket knives, etc. Some chisels too.
  • C is good for boneless meats and veg. Finer chisels might be ground here.
  • None is good for opening 55 gallon drums, that's what crowbars are for.
Click to expand...
I believe he means a cold chisel, not a woodworker’s tool. Those are the ones I’ve seen with obtuse apices.
 
hibbs00 said:
Besides the dry stone thing his style is similar to mine and I get the sharpest edge this way vs all the other styles I've tried. Also very similar to Cliff Stamp and his style so there's something about it that works. I'm more interested in the steel claim, dry stone claim that he has pictures for and if I was understanding him right about thinning around 11 degrees and then raise the angle to 22.5 on the fine stone or if he meant thin at 11, sharpen at 22.5 and then raise the angle and since most have told me to not use my 6k stone on the wusthof if just raising my angle to deburr on the 6k would work or if it's still better to just deburr on the 1k
Click to expand...
For sure, there are nuggets of good stuff in here. I have found those same nuggets in other places I prefer, but I don't want to yuck your yum - I'm stoked you found some methods that give you edges you like.
 
captaincaed said:
For sure, there are nuggets of good stuff in here. I have found those same nuggets in other places I prefer, but I don't want to yuck your yum - I'm stoked you found some methods that give you edges you like.
Click to expand...
I'm still curious about my wusthof. Should I just deburr on the 1k stone I use or should I do the higher passes on the 6k if others have told me not to polish the edge on the 6k. It's not polishing the edge but it would create a polished micro bevel right?
 
Yeah that’s essential what you’d be doing.

If others discouraged you from a 6k edge is just because the Wustof steel may not support an edge that fine. But try it and find out. You’re the boss. There’s no rules. It’s super easy to go back to 1k if you don’t like it.
 
captaincaed said:
Yeah that’s essential what you’d be doing.

If others discouraged you from a 6k edge is just because the Wustof steel may not support an edge that fine. But try it and find out. You’re the boss. There’s no rules. It’s super easy to go back to 1k if you don’t like it.
Click to expand...
I also have a 180mm Teruyasu Fujiwara santoku from the nashiji line made with shirogami #1 white steel that I can get a really good edge on. I've only sharpened that once so far. It seems to hold the 6k. I kind of want to get a higher grit stone for it
 
hibbs00 said:
I also have a 180mm Teruyasu Fujiwara santoku from the nashiji line made with shirogami #1 white steel that I can get a really good edge on. I've only sharpened that once so far. It seems to hold the 6k. I kind of want to get a higher grit stone for it
Click to expand...
Great example of how a harder carbon steel can hold a finer edge compared to a soft stainless.
 
jacobwilder5 said:
Great example of how a harder carbon steel can hold a finer edge compared to a soft stainless.
Click to expand...
I still need to master my technique but I'm close. It can cut half way down a loosely held paper towel and can push cut on the 90/90/90 degree but I know it can still be better
 
hibbs00 said:
I still need to master my technique but I'm close. It can cut half way down a loosely held paper towel and can push cut on the 90/90/90 degree but I know it can still be better
Click to expand...
any non food items is a terrible gauging tool for something used to cut food. a tightly rolled up paper towel however is useful for deburring.
 
panda said:
if you're using it for food, then use food to test it. just some common sense.
Click to expand...
If it can cut paper it can cut the paper on onion and definitely cut pepper skins.
But I meant about the paper towel for deburring
 
panda said:
the paper has little fibers that grab onto knife pubes and pulls them off as you cut through. it's like a waxing job
Click to expand...
Interesting. I know some say that about cork but some say it just smashes it back into the edge
 
hibbs00 said:
I also have a 180mm Teruyasu Fujiwara santoku from the nashiji line made with shirogami #1 white steel that I can get a really good edge on. I've only sharpened that once so far. It seems to hold the 6k. I kind of want to get a higher grit stone for it
Click to expand...
You can likely push that steel to a very high polish if you wanted. Play around and have fun. Compare with the German steel. Learn lots and let it put a smile on your face.
 
hibbs00 said:
If it can cut paper it can cut the paper on onion and definitely cut pepper skins.
But I meant about the paper towel for deburring
Click to expand...
Not necessarily true. I mean like captain said, try it yourself. but I have found that yes, I can tear through paper towel no problem with a edge tuned on a very fine grit, but it has trouble grabbing the skin of a tomato. So instead of instantly cutting the skin I skid over top. You can very easily stop at 1k and still have a great time even if it doesn't shred paper like a high grit knife would.
 
captaincaed said:
You can likely push that steel to a very high polish if you wanted. Play around and have fun. Compare with the German steel. Learn lots and let it put a smile on your face.
Click to expand...
I think it's a lost art and great skill to have that most have no interest in learning these days.
 
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