Shibazi zuo professional series inquiry

[JWK1]

I'm looking to try out a "full size" cleaver. My understanding puts the blade around 130mm long and 110mm high, give or take. 220mm is as long as I would want to go, and I think 240mm x 120mm might be getting too big and heavy. Just a guess. The CCK 1102 and 1103 are available from one vendor on the bay, but with shipping they now go for around $140. Too much for me right now considering the steel and risk of wavy cutting edges. The larger Shibazi high carbon cleavers are no longer available on Ali Express, so that's out.

Enter the Shibazi professional series. The F208-2 is sold by the big A and has been reviewed by Panko on youtube and various people here and there. Typical size of 208mm x 88mm. However, there are three other sizes available. F208-1 (228 x 96), F202-2 (230 x 110), F202-1 (240 x 120). I would be interested in the F208-1 or the F202-2.

I really didn't want to go SS on a cleaver. However, for around $50 to my door, I thought it might be worth trying to see if I want something of this size. Looking for info and opinions on a few things.

1. SS core with soft SS cladding. I know nothing about what core steel they are using. Anyone know anything about it? How it is to sharpen, edge retention, etc.
2. They are presented as "slicers" and "mulberry knives", but are they really, or are they just general purpose cleavers, maybe even heavy for that?
3. If I really love this size cleaver, I probably would be willing to overpay for a CCK 1102 to get a lighter, thinner, high carbon blade. Looking for opinions on whether these will give a valid representation of this size slicer, or whether they are so much thicker and heavier I would just be wasting my time. Sort of like buying a CCK bone chopper (whatever that model is) in the same size as an 1102. I don't think you would know if you would like an 1102 if you're trying something with the same dimensions, but twice as heavy. Extreme example for illustration purpose.
4. Also looking for opinions on whether I should just forget the Shibazi and patiently wait for a used CCK 1102 to pop up somewhere. Could take a long time bordering on forever, but if the Shibazi's just really crappy...well, you know. I'm retired and I simply don't have the disposable income I once did.

Thanks for any info and advice.

 

[blokey]

mulberry knives are not all purpose cleavers, however in SBZ’s case they are thick enough at the edge they might just be. They use 8cr13 which is Chinese version of Aus-8, around 58, not amazing but better than their usual 4cr13. CCK 110x series is a large sliver/Da Pian Dao, which have different grind than mulberry knife/Sang Dao, but all in all CCK would be a much better choice.

 

[blokey]

There’s also Dengjia which have better grind but their 9Cr18MoV is not the best, they do have some carbon cleaver tho

 

[Colorado_cutter]

I wouldn’t really call the ShiBaZi F208-2 a “full sized” cleaver at 207 x 88. I used to have one. I really liked the handle- very grippy rosewood. Fit and finish is pretty good, although the spine and choil both really needed easing. I found it a bit thick behind the edge, so I considered it more heavy-duty. It’s also a bit heavy for its size. Mine weighed 330 grams. I sold the ShiBaZi and replaced it with a “Chopper King” from Chef Knives to Go. They’re a little hard to tell from one another, but the one I got was 213 x 108, 354 grams, stainless clad white #2. Thinner behind the edge than the ShiBaZi, and easier to sharpen. Downsides are that the handle isn’t as nice, IMHO, and the profile is quite a bit more rounded. That’s the big bummer for me, since I like cleavers relatively flat. As for the larger ShiBaZi cleavers- I have no direct experience, but while I found the steel of the F208-2 perfectly adequate, it really didn’t excite me. Maybe I’m just not that great at chasing the burr, but I find carbon steel gets noticeably sharper than stainless (this kind, anyway), and with greater ease.

CKTG also make a knife similar to the smaller CCK, with the flatter profile like the CCK. I haven’t tried one of those, but imagine it would be nice. I used to have a CCK 1303 and really liked it. Edge retention wasn’t great, and I also found that the steel was a bit reactive, so when I landed a (quite a bit more expensive) Ashi Hamono cleaver at 225 x 110 in monosteel white steel, I let the CCK go. Fun as the medium-sized cleavers are, I just find I can move more produce with a larger cleaver.

So, in your shoes, I’d lean towards the full-sized CCK 1103 (or maybe the 1102). Nice and thin, full-sized, good profile. Just have to deal with a little reactivity. Or possibly go with the Chopper King white #2. I find the white #2 a bit better than the CCK steel at holding an edge, and the stainless cladding makes care easier. The one I have looks more rounded than the one shown in the picture on the CKTG site… not sure if that’s just from how the picture is taken, or if there has been a running profile change. Another bonus is that the spine by the handle on the Chopper King is quite thick for comfort and then tapers down to much thinner. With the CCK cleavers, you sort of have to develop a callous on your index finger due to the thin spine. Just sort of depends on what profile you like. CCK is pretty flat, Chopper King could be flat, could be a bit rounded.

And just one final note on CCK versus Chopper King: the handles. CCK handles are utilitarian, but quite functional and grippy. The Chopper King handles are solid oak, which should be nice, but they're coated with some sort of lacquer. They don't have quite the grip of the CCK handles, even after you strip off the lacquer.

What I'd really love in an inexpensive cleaver would be the Chopper King steel and wide-to-narrow spine, the ShiBaZi rosewood handle, and the CCK profile, at about 220 or 225 x 110. It'd probably come in at around 430 grams or so.

 

[JWK1]

mulberry knives are not all purpose cleavers, however in SBZ’s case they are thick enough at the edge they might just be. They use 8cr13 which is Chinese version of Aus-8, around 58, not amazing but better than their usual 4cr13. CCK 110x series is a large sliver/Da Pian Dao, which have different grind than mulberry knife/Sang Dao, but all in all CCK would be a much better choice.

There’s also Dengjia which have better grind but their 9Cr18MoV is not the best, they do have some carbon cleaver tho

Thank you for that info on the Shibazi pro knives and the difference between the CCK 130X and 110X series. I had always wondered why the rectangles in the two lines were proportioned differently. Similar but still two slightly different kinds of knives. Maybe an analogy would be like a large petty and a very small gyuto? I did a search on the Dengjia, but really can't find any sources for their high carbon knives. I also can't find anything in full size in their SS.

I recently read a post (I can't seem to find it now) in which I think you stated that the CCK 130X line is misunderstood and is designed for very fine work. If I'm remembering correctly and this was you, could you give me an example of what the say, 1302 would be better suited for over the 1102? I've often thought of late whether getting both of those would be a logical pairing, or whether they would be too redundant. I'm really not one for collecting and gathering knives.

I wouldn’t really call the ShiBaZi F208-2 a “full sized” cleaver at 207 x 88. I used to have one. I really liked the handle- very grippy rosewood. Fit and finish is pretty good, although the spine and choil both really needed easing. I found it a bit thick behind the edge, so I considered it more heavy-duty. It’s also a bit heavy for its size. Mine weighed 330 grams. I sold the ShiBaZi and replaced it with a “Chopper King” from Chef Knives to Go. They’re a little hard to tell from one another, but the one I got was 213 x 108, 354 grams, stainless clad white #2. Thinner behind the edge than the ShiBaZi, and easier to sharpen. Downsides are that the handle isn’t as nice, IMHO, and the profile is quite a bit more rounded. That’s the big bummer for me, since I like cleavers relatively flat. As for the larger ShiBaZi cleavers- I have no direct experience, but while I found the steel of the F208-2 perfectly adequate, it really didn’t excite me. Maybe I’m just not that great at chasing the burr, but I find carbon steel gets noticeably sharper than stainless (this kind, anyway), and with greater ease.

CKTG also make a knife similar to the smaller CCK, with the flatter profile like the CCK. I haven’t tried one of those, but imagine it would be nice. I used to have a CCK 1303 and really liked it. Edge retention wasn’t great, and I also found that the steel was a bit reactive, so when I landed a (quite a bit more expensive) Ashi Hamono cleaver at 225 x 110 in monosteel white steel, I let the CCK go. Fun as the medium-sized cleavers are, I just find I can move more produce with a larger cleaver.

So, in your shoes, I’d lean towards the full-sized CCK 1103 (or maybe the 1102). Nice and thin, full-sized, good profile. Just have to deal with a little reactivity. Or possibly go with the Chopper King white #2. I find the white #2 a bit better than the CCK steel at holding an edge, and the stainless cladding makes care easier. The one I have looks more rounded than the one shown in the picture on the CKTG site… not sure if that’s just from how the picture is taken, or if there has been a running profile change. Another bonus is that the spine by the handle on the Chopper King is quite thick for comfort and then tapers down to much thinner. With the CCK cleavers, you sort of have to develop a callous on your index finger due to the thin spine. Just sort of depends on what profile you like. CCK is pretty flat, Chopper King could be flat, could be a bit rounded.

And just one final note on CCK versus Chopper King: the handles. CCK handles are utilitarian, but quite functional and grippy. The Chopper King handles are solid oak, which should be nice, but they're coated with some sort of lacquer. They don't have quite the grip of the CCK handles, even after you strip off the lacquer.

What I'd really love in an inexpensive cleaver would be the Chopper King steel and wide-to-narrow spine, the ShiBaZi rosewood handle, and the CCK profile, at about 220 or 225 x 110. It'd probably come in at around 430 grams or so.

The reference to the F208-2 was just to illustrate that it's the only model for sale on Amazon and the only one of that line with a review on youtube or anywhere, for that matter. I said I would be interested in the F208-1 or the F202-2. Both much larger than the F208-2. They obviously tout the F208 line as the "mulberry" type of knife and the F202 line as the larger slicer type, like CCK's 130X and 110X.

Thank you for that in depth description of the Shibazi. That's very helpful. I get the sense that getting a full size Shibazi pro (230 x 110) would not really tell me if I would want to upgrade to a CCK 1102. It sounds like there is just too much difference in the steel, thickness, and weight to determine whether I would like a CCK 1102.

I did consider a Chopper King, but I think I really want something more full size. Yes, CKTG is pretty much saying that the Chopper Kings are now profiled like a CCK, and no longer as rounded. Also, the cleavers CKTG used to offer are no longer available. The blade length on the Chopper Kings are now around 205mm, so a bit smaller.

 

[blokey]

Thank you for that info on the Shibazi pro knives and the difference between the CCK 130X and 110X series. I had always wondered why the rectangles in the two lines were proportioned differently. Similar but still two slightly different kinds of knives. Maybe an analogy would be like a large petty and a very small gyuto? I did a search on the Dengjia, but really can't find any sources for their high carbon knives. I also can't find anything in full size in their SS.

I recently read a post (I can't seem to find it now) in which I think you stated that the CCK 130X line is misunderstood and is designed for very fine work. If I'm remembering correctly and this was you, could you give me an example of what the say, 1302 would be better suited for over the 1102? I've often thought of late whether getting both of those would be a logical pairing, or whether they would be too redundant. I'm really not one for collecting and gathering knives.


The reference to the F208-2 was just to illustrate that it's the only model for sale on Amazon and the only one of that line with a review on youtube or anywhere, for that matter. I said I would be interested in the F208-1 or the F202-2. Both much larger than the F208-2. They obviously tout the F208 line as the "mulberry" type of knife and the F202 line as the larger slicer type, like CCK's 130X and 110X.

Thank you for that in depth description of the Shibazi. That's very helpful. I get the sense that getting a full size Shibazi pro (230 x 110) would not really tell me if I would want to upgrade to a CCK 1102. It sounds like there is just too much difference in the steel, thickness, and weight to determine whether I would like a CCK 1102.

I did consider a Chopper King, but I think I really want something more full size. Yes, CKTG is pretty much saying that the Chopper Kings are now profiled like a CCK, and no longer as rounded. Also, the cleavers CKTG used to offer are no longer available. The blade length on the Chopper Kings are now around 205mm, so a bit smaller.

The 110x and 130x are kind like workhorse gyuto and laser, but 130x are but more specialized. Especially for things like this

 

[JWK1]

The 110x and 130x are kind like workhorse gyuto and laser, but 130x are but more specialized.

Thanks for putting that in perspective. I've watched that video a handful of times now. I love watching those skilled chefs doing that kind of precision cutting, and then to see the transformation into the finished dish. It's mesmerizing to me.

It sounds like I want a good 1102 or 1101 for my purposes. A 1302 or 1303 would be secondary.