Shigefusa/Kato/Watanabe -- Why all the fuss?

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naifu

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I think we thoroughly vetted the fascination with Honyaki knives. I have a similar question for Shigs/Katos/Watanabes -- why are they so popular? Again, I am new to Japanese Chef Knives, so please forgive my ignorance, but it appears that these are popular because some really old guy who is still making knives the way his father taught him many years ago results in knives which are extremely desirable, collectable, and rare, such that they fly off the shelf at a very high price.

These are Japanese knives, made from carbon steel. Why pay $700 or more for such a knife and wait 6 to 18 months for one, when you can buy something comparable? If there is nothing comparable, why is that? Every other knife maker must desire infinite demand for their knives, and so why couldn't another knife crafter copy the design?

I have to imagine that there is a collectible value tied to the demand and cost of shigs/katos/watanabes/etc., just like say a very rare baseball card or stamp. These knives cannot be twice or three times as good as many other good carbon steel knives which are readily available for far less money, right?

I understand supply and demand, collectible value, etc. What I am asking, are these knives really so much better than other knives that cost less? I once visited a wine and liquor store in Las Vegas where they were selling old scotch whiskey for up to $40,000 USD. Someone is going to buy it, and I have to admit I am curious whether there is a 1000x difference between a 40k bottle of scotch and a 40 dollar bottle, but I am pretty sure there is only a small difference in actual taste and satisfaction.

One more question -- are shigs/katos/watanabes actually better in all cases, or do they sometimes fall short of their reputation?
 
Long story short: exclusivity (much more demand than supply), quality of grind, art-like blade geometry, and the fact that the makers are aging.
 
You would be suprised at how different an extra $200 or $300 will be on knives made by the same maker let alone between 2 different craftsmen.
 
I wouldn't put Watanabe-san in that pot as his products are more available. It doesn't change the fact that his blades are awesome. Harder than most, easy to sharpen, and most importantly, cut very well.

Kato is not my cup of tea. Something related to its balance. I can't deny it cuts very well too.

I like Shigs and would get more if it weren't so expensive and unavailable. They sharpen very fast and, and ,at least the ones i used, cut very well. Not taking into account the great f&f, specially if you are into polishing. In my opinion Shigs deserve their reputation, but that's only my opinion.

As with everything, there are diminishing returns for things charged a premium. Also, like you said, supply and demand is a factor here.
 
I'm still sort of stuck on the fact that these knives apparently are geometrically unstable over time.
 
Kato/shig are just very unique knives, if there were more knives that shared the attributes of kato and shig then perhaps they wouldn't be so popular, or atleast more readily available.
 
Unique sums it up well.

1. Shigafusa - amazing sharp Iwasaki steel with the ultimate fit and finish, especially the Kitaeji
2. Kato - pinnacle of a heavy weight knife but the 240mm and above can be a beast to tame. Great food release and some get the honyaki feedback on the boards which can be addictive.
3. Watanabe - heavy weight knive that takes a beating and keeps going. For the price a good balance between between quality and finish.

Only my way of thinking about it. Please note: the only knive I haven't used is the Shigafusa.
 
Something has to be the most popular, right? These things change, we as a community go through phases. Lasers used to be all the rage, now Shiges and Katos. It will ebb and flow again.
 
JohnnyChance said:
Something has to be the most popular, right? These things change, we as a community go through phases. Lasers used to be all the rage, now Shiges and Katos. It will ebb and flow again.
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I tend to agree with the above. "Flavour of the month" type of things. Not trying to diminish Shigs and Katos, but thier price and availability are ridiculous now.

I also would not put Watanabe anywhere close to the other two hype-wise.
 
I tend not to agree with "flavor of the month". The demand for shigafusa and Kato knives have been steadily increasing year after year after year. The demand far outweighs the supply so the knives command a higher price every month. They aren't going out of style anytime soon.
 
Also

Aside from making a very good knife.

Let's not forget the forums/members growth, shigs have always been popular now there's just more of us wanting them.

I guarantee not other better sales vehicle than this forum for some of these makers
 
naifu said:
My mistake -- I did not know they were not as popular.
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I wouldn't say Watanabe isn't as popular. I bet he sells more knives than Shig and Kato combined. The difference is, you can get them so there is not the mad dash to purchase whenever one turns up. Maybe if Watanabe made only a small percentage of what he does now, and double his prices, he would deserve to be on this list as well. [emoji14]
 
dwalker said:
I wouldn't say Watanabe isn't as popular. I bet he sells more knives than Shig and Kato combined. The difference is, you can get them so there is not the mad dash to purchase whenever one turns up. Maybe if Watanabe made only a small percentage of what he does now, and double his prices, he would deserve to be on this list as well. [emoji14]
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Or you could just get a Toyama 😀
 
I have 2 Toyama knives and will probably get some more soon enough. That is a brand that won't be around much longer either. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, performance is better than the Kato. There is no comparing the fit and finish either. The Toyama blows the Kato away in that regard. At least that is my experience with the one Kato I've used. Small sample size so I'm probably way off base.
 
Yeah that was my original point from the first page. Kato and shig are highly sought after for their uniqueness. The way we determine performance can vary but I don't think it's necessarily tied to a higher price tag.
 
dwalker said:
I have 2 Toyama knives and will probably get some more soon enough. That is a brand that won't be around much longer either. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, performance is better than the Kato. There is no comparing the fit and finish either. The Toyama blows the Kato away in that regard. At least that is my experience with the one Kato I've used. Small sample size so I'm probably way off base.
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I purchased five last month when they were on sale -- two gyotos, a deba, a sujihiki, and a petty. I am very pleased with the quality of these ... and the price.
 
For Kato and Shig.. the fuss is directly proportionate the huge froth and disparity between supply and demand. Both, subjectively, are good performers.

Watanabe, the "fuss" is more linked to the fairly constant stream of praise for how they perform and feel and how nice Sin is to deal with. But you could buy one tomorrow if you wanted, there is no disparity between supply and demand.

Dwalker has highlighted something interesting. Consider Toyama. It is, for the purpose of this hypothesis, "identical" to a Kasumi Watanabe (let's ignore real subtleties and nuance). He is in his 80's and will conceivably retire soon. This will effectively pull up the handbreak on production and supply while the demand may remain constant. I'd put a fair wager on people going doolally for them when the supply is cut off. We're funny but predictable like that even in the face of obtaining a near identical Watanabe, people will be setting up "Toyama alerts" and hustling on BST etc
 
labor of love said:
I tend not to agree with "flavor of the month". The demand for shigafusa and Kato knives have been steadily increasing year after year after year. The demand far outweighs the supply so the knives command a higher price every month. They aren't going out of style anytime soon.
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They are taking advantage of the market, which is us. Smart business, bad ethics. Why support them?

Because we're materialistic.

Edit.. Not sure why I quoted you
 
I mean, I've never had a problem buying something if I felt the price was unfair. I'm playing the shig sweepstakes but not as seriously as some others. I think ootb shigs are priced appropriately. Those makers aren't going increase production simply because demand increases if they don't want to.
 
I certainly hope that when retailers bump the pricing on hot ticket items like Kato and Shigefusa, that the makers get a bigger piece of the pie as well.

On another note, why will Toyama not be around muxh longer? Been eyeing a deba and petty may have to jump on that if there's any substance to that.
 
StonedEdge said:
I certainly hope that when retailers bump the pricing on hot ticket items like Kato and Shigefusa, that the makers get a bigger piece of the pie as well.
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I doubt it .. most of the crazy price increases are in the secondary market where the price it sells for has no benefit to the maker.

You will find that most overseas online reseller of shigs and kato mark it up about 25-40 % more than reseller stores in Japan. I have brought 7 of my 8 katos directly from Japan either online or in person so I have a fair gauge on what they cost in Japan.
 
ynot1985 said:
I doubt it .. most of the crazy price increases are in the secondary market where the price it sells for has no benefit to the maker.

You will find that most overseas online reseller of shigs and kato mark it up about 25-40 % more than reseller stores in Japan. I have brought 7 of my 8 katos directly from Japan either online or in person so I have a fair gauge on what they cost in Japan.
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Yup - 100%.
 
Jns recently sold a shig 240mm kasumi gyuto for $550, maybe a little less. For the labor, materials, quality and reputation of the product I still think they're very worth it.
Someone also just sold a non Damascus kato 210 gyuto in bst for like $800, I think that's pretty nuts.
 
supply and demand and rarity. If only 1 i would go hand picked denka.
 
labor of love said:
Jns recently sold a shig 240mm kasumi gyuto for $550, maybe a little less. For the labor, materials, quality and reputation of the product I still think they're very worth it.
Someone also just sold a non Damascus kato 210 gyuto in bst for like $800, I think that's pretty nuts.
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That was a new level. Nuts
 
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