should i use a coarser stone ?

[r0bz]

I sometimes find myself trying to sharpen a knife that does not cut printer paper but does not feel significantly damaged (no visible dents nicks or anything) I start at the 800# stone do a dozen of strokes at the right angle and no burr raised if I were to sharpen my knife that was maintained a lot better I would raise a burr in 5 passes .
should I use a coarser stone when sharpening a knife that does not cut printer paper ?
why does it take a dozen strokes, how do I know how coarse of a stone to start with?

 

[Rangen]

why does it take a dozen strokes, how do I know how coarse of a stone to start with?

Experience. And I would banish from your mind the notion that X strokes will accomplish Y goal. It all depends on what is happening with the knife.

800 should be plenty coarse to deal with a knife that was sharp, and became dull, and is not damaged. Try looking straight down at the edge, under the best light you can manage. If you can move it around and catch something reflecting, then you no longer have an apex.

Basically all you have to do is keep going, and you will reach your goal. That's assuming you're right about being at the right angle, the angle the knife was sharpened with. Plenty of people, including me, have fooled themselves about that. That's why the Sharpie test, where you color the bevel with a Sharpie and make sure your sharpening strokes are removing all of it, is so often recommended.

 

[Neutri]

Could also depend on the steel?

 

[r0bz]

Could also depend on the steel?

its stainless
written on it X50CrMoV15
but from what I read it is more likely to be GB 5Cr15MoV

 

[r0bz]

800 should be plenty coarse to deal with a knife that was sharp, and became dull, and is not damaged. Try looking straight down at the edge, under the best light you can manage. If you can move it around and catch something reflecting, then you no longer have an apex.

and if i see reflection do i need to use a coarser stone ?
-

 

[Neutri]

its stainless
written on it X50CrMoV15
but from what I read it is more likely to be GB 5Cr15MoV

Yeah it's soft stainless steel. IME it takes a little bit of time to sharpen on medium grit stones compared to carbon steel. But 800 should be able to.
Is it the same steel as your more maintained knife?

 

[r0bz]

Yeah it's soft stainless steel. IME it takes a little bit of time to sharpen on medium grit stones compared to carbon steel. But 800 should be able to.
Is it the same steel as your more maintained knife?

yeha same steel

 

[Neutri]

Well than I don't know why the difference. Maybe someone more experienced can explain it

 

[Benuser]

With soft stainless like the one used by the big Germans — and IKEA — better use a much coarser one. I use a SG320. The 800 for very lightly removing the last burr. Not for removing the 320 pattern. The steel doesn't hold any polishing. The coarse stone can abrade the chromium carbides. Finer stones don't. The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability.
Remember the soft stainless is highly abrasion resistant.
Very different in all respects from similarly soft carbons who do take and hold a high polish.

 

[The_Real_Self]

With soft stainless like the one used by the big Germans — and IKEA — better use a much coarser one. I use a SG320. The 800 for very lightly removing the last burr. Not for removing the 320 pattern. The steel doesn't hold any polishing. The coarse stone can abrade the chromium carbides. Finer stones don't. The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability.
Remember the soft stainless is highly abrasion resistant.
Very different in all respects from similarly soft carbons who do take and hold a high polish.

Great answer. I would go a step farther and suggest using a stone made of silicon carbine (preferably GC or green carbide). Something around 120-240 grit would be ideal here but going a bit higher isn't bad either, just slower.

 

[r0bz]

With soft stainless like the one used by the big Germans — and IKEA — better use a much coarser one. I use a SG320. The 800 for very lightly removing the last burr. Not for removing the 320 pattern. The steel doesn't hold any polishing. The coarse stone can abrade the chromium carbides. Finer stones don't. The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability.
Remember the soft stainless is highly abrasion resistant.
Very different in all respects from similarly soft carbons who do take and hold a high polish.

glad to hear from you @Benuser yes it is a knife from Ikea I think I will use the 220 grit next time do you recommend it? do you recommend deburring on the coarse stone before switching to the 800# ? or just deburr on the 800# stone?

 

[r0bz]

glad to hear from you @Benuser yes it is a knife from Ikea I think I will use the 220 grit next time do you recommend it? do you recommend deburring on the coarse stone before switching to the 800# ? or just deburr on the 800# stone?

I forgot to say @Benuser i thank you sincerely

 

[r0bz]

I forgot to say @Benuser i thank you sincerely

@Benuser can you see what i write ?

 

[coxhaus]

Most important is holding the angle correctly and not letting the blade roll or change angles as you sharpen. This will cause you to sharpen and sharpen which will take a lot more strokes.

 

[boblob]

With soft stainless like the one used by the big Germans — and IKEA — better use a much coarser one. I use a SG320. The 800 for very lightly removing the last burr. Not for removing the 320 pattern. The steel doesn't hold any polishing. The coarse stone can abrade the chromium carbides. Finer stones don't. The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability.
Remember the soft stainless is highly abrasion resistant.
Very different in all respects from similarly soft carbons who do take and hold a high polish.

wow that is quite groundbreaking information right there @Benuser i did not know that about stainless knives , may i ask from where did you learn about the carbides i searched but couldn't find information that i can learn from

also how would you suggust sharpening a knife like my chinease cleaver ?
The Shibazi F208 is made with an 80cr13 core material with softer stainless steel 10cr17 cladding. 59 hrc
do you suggust sharpening it like what you said for his ikea knife with a very coarse stone ? or this cleaver is dosnt fit in the catagory that you described there "The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability."
https://www.chefpanko.com/shi-ba-zi...rab the knife,blade length of 23 centimeters.

 

[coxhaus]

I wonder if there is a difference between a good German knife edge being convex vs not. My belt system adds a certain amount of convex to my edges. I have wondered if it makes them stronger. If you use a crappy version of German steel or heat treatment then maybe not.

 

[Benuser]

I wonder if there is a difference between a good German knife edge being convex vs not. My belt system adds a certain amount of convex to my edges. I have wondered if it makes them stronger. If you use a crappy version of German steel or heat treatment then maybe not.

I sharpen Germans convex: already by removing the fat shoulders and increasing the far too low sharpening angle that only serves marketing purposes. I end at sometime like 18° per side with Wüsthof who came with 13° IIRC, which the steel barely takes. The straight bevels the modern knives come with have all to do with cheap production.

 

[Benuser]

wow that is quite groundbreaking information right there @Benuser i did not know that about stainless knives , may i ask from where did you learn about the carbides i searched but couldn't find information that i can learn from

also how would you suggust sharpening a knife like my chinease cleaver ?
The Shibazi F208 is made with an 80cr13 core material with softer stainless steel 10cr17 cladding. 59 hrc
do you suggust sharpening it like what you said for his ikea knife with a very coarse stone ? or this cleaver is dosnt fit in the catagory that you described there "The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability."
https://www.chefpanko.com/shi-ba-zi...rab the knife,blade length of 23 centimeters.

Nothing groundbreaking about it. It was Roman Landes who introduced in Messerklingen und Stahl the notion of edge stability, explaining very well what happened with large carbides in a soft matrix — which is exactly what happens with Krupp's 4116. The notion must be at least some 30 years old. Perhaps you may find more in the archive of messerforum.net.
I've no idea what 80cr13 is about, and Zknives doesn't mention it. It won't be the same as Krupp's 4116, as for some time Chinese and other makers advertised explicitly with 'German steel'. Apparently, they now know better.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

wow that is quite groundbreaking information right there @Benuser i did not know that about stainless knives , may i ask from where did you learn about the carbides i searched but couldn't find information that i can learn from

also how would you suggust sharpening a knife like my chinease cleaver ?
The Shibazi F208 is made with an 80cr13 core material with softer stainless steel 10cr17 cladding. 59 hrc
do you suggust sharpening it like what you said for his ikea knife with a very coarse stone ? or this cleaver is dosnt fit in the catagory that you described there "The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability."
https://www.chefpanko.com/shi-ba-zi...rab the knife,blade length of 23 centimeters.

The Science of Sharp and Knife Steel Nerds are excellent sources of info.

 

[Benuser]

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/article-what-is-edge-stability.38300/

 

[blokey]

80cr13 is Chinese version of 440B/AUS-8, should hold a fine edge better than 1.4116.

 

[Chef Doom]

Most important is holding the angle correctly and not letting the blade roll or change angles as you sharpen. This will cause you to sharpen and sharpen which will take a lot more strokes.

This is probably why softer carbon had the reputation for being easier to sharpen than softer stainless.

 

[Benuser]

This is probably why softer carbon had the reputation for being easier to sharpen than softer stainless.

Less abrasion resistant, less strokes, less chance for errors, indeed.

 

[boblob]

Nothing groundbreaking about it. It was Roman Landes who introduced in Messerklingen und Stahl the notion of edge stability, explaining very well what happened with large carbides in a soft matrix — which is exactly what happens with Krupp's 4116. The notion must be at least some 30 years old. Perhaps you may find more in the archive of messerforum.net.
I've no idea what 80cr13 is about, and Zknives doesn't mention it. It won't be the same as Krupp's 4116, as for some time Chinese and other makers advertised explicitly with 'German steel'. Apparently, they now know better.

80cr13 is Chinese version of 440B/AUS-8, should hold a fine edge better than 1.4116.

@Benuser here is what i have found on the steel it confirms with what @blokey has wrote
https://knifeuser.com/is-8cr13mov-good-knife-steel-complete-steel-guide/#What_is_8Cr13MoVhttp://zknives.com/knives/steels/GB/10cr17.shtmlalso i found for you in the site you mentioned zknives the info on this type of steel
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/cn/8cr13mov.shtml
now do you think i should treat the cleaver when sharpening like you described the german and ikea knives should i use a very coarse stone or this shibazi can be sharpened with an 800# stone?
thank you!!!!

With soft stainless like the one used by the big Germans — and IKEA — better use a much coarser one. I use a SG320. The 800 for very lightly removing the last burr. Not for removing the 320 pattern. The steel doesn't hold any polishing. The coarse stone can abrade the chromium carbides. Finer stones don't. The structure is already weak, and polishing will add to the lack of edge stability.
Remember the soft stainless is highly abrasion resistant.
Very different in all respects from similarly soft carbons who do take and hold a high polish.

 

[boblob]

@Benuser here is what i have found on the steel it confirms with what @blokey has wrote
https://knifeuser.com/is-8cr13mov-good-knife-steel-complete-steel-guide/#What_is_8Cr13MoVhttp://zknives.com/knives/steels/GB/10cr17.shtmlalso i found for you in the site you mentioned zknives the info on this type of steel
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/cn/8cr13mov.shtml
now do you think i should treat the cleaver when sharpening like you described the german and ikea knives should i use a very coarse stone and not erase the scratches left from the very coarse stone or this shibazi can be sharpened with an 800# stone?
thank you!!!!

@Benuser
i would be thrilled if you will be able to tell me what is your thought on that now that i found the info on the steel's
best of wishes

Bob

 

[Benuser]

If it indeed is similar to Aus-8 there's no reason to stop at 800. You may want to give 2k a try.

 

[boblob]

If it indeed is similar to Aus-8 there's no reason to stop at 800. You may want to give 2k a try.

the core is the chinease equivelent of aus 8 and cladding with GB 10Cr17 Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36
wow i only have a 6k or 8k stone no 2k stone
from what i understand you suggest starting the sharpening with the 300# stone or i can start the sharpening with the 800#?
can i use the dickoron micro in order to maintain the cleaver between sharpenings ?

 

[coxhaus]

Less abrasion resistant, less strokes, less chance for errors, indeed.

Yes this is what I believe. Less strokes less chance of error. Same issue going to higher end stones.

 

[Benuser]

the core is the chinease equivelent of aus 8 and cladding with GB 10Cr17 Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36
wow i only have a 6k or 8k stone no 2k stone
from what i understand you suggest starting the sharpening with the 300# stone or i can start the sharpening with the 800#?
can i use the dickoron micro in order to maintain the cleaver between sharpenings ?

As you didn't get a fast burr with the 800 I would start with the 300. After the 800, give the 6k a try. Perhaps no full polishing, but the last deburring. If it works out, you have a tool for maintenance as well.

 

[coxhaus]

So what steel is the MAC Pro? I googled it a few times but I could not find it.

I like my German steel better in my Henckels 4 and 5 star knives than my MAC Pro. My Henckels have a better steel for my use. The MAC Pro went dull on me maybe cause a lot of limes. It had to be sharpened sooner than my Henckels.

Cutco is kind of a garbage steel as it won't hold an edge at 15 degrees. These are things I have figured out over time. Actually, it will not even sharpen at 15 degrees.