Something different than my knives e.g. better food release - a Nakiri

[nickkon1]

For my next knife, I am looking for a nakiri, obviously mainly for vegetable prep since I cook that the most. To understand the world of knives better, I am looking for something a different. This basic thought was also the basis of my first two knives where I could find a nice combination of different steels, zones and finish that I like:

Current knives:
Mutsumi Hinoura Ajikataya, White #2 240mm Gyuto
Shiro Kamo Black Dragon, Blue #2 Petty

Because of the Shiro Kamo being significantly smaller and finer, I am kind of ignoring it in terms of performance and geometry since everything falls off due to its size anyway. If possible, my goal would be to have something thinner with good food release. While I want something laser-y, I don't think that I want a true laser (yet). Both because of its fragility and less food release.

From reading and obviously 3rd party knowledge: I think that my goal might be a convex grind but also a different kind of finish compared to my other knives. My steel selection is all over the place right now. I slightly lean towards stainless since I don't have a Japanese one yet. But my selection of stainless steels is mostly based on the finish /design and I am a bit unsure about VG10 vs. SG2 and find conflicting info (KKF saying it doesn't really matter, Reddit saying SG2 for sure and you notice the difference). There is also some talks about chipping but I figure the reputation comes from people being gifted Shun knives and not being careful.

My largest 'issue' is that I find it incredibly hard to judge the knife due to the coil shot. Even when holding a paper on my monitor to have a straight line next to it, the difference seems tiny and the best one was to hold a credit card on a real knife. Hence, I am listing a wider selection. Honestly, I feel a bit all over the place while having a somewhat acceptable idea at the same time.

What have I looked at:

• Nigara Hamono, VG10 Tsuchime Damast Migaki. Example #1 incl. cutting video, Example #2 - it is simply one of the most beautiful knives I have seen in in the price range I am willing to spent money while being inexperienced. The handle also looks great. I am aware that I am paying extra for the design. I am tending hard towards this one.
• Yu Kurosaki, Fujin: VG10 or SG2 - I might ask the shop if they expect a shipment and wait if its better.
• Sakai Takayuki, Ginsan SUI - also more because of the design
• Masakage Kiri, VG10
• Shiro Kamo, Ryuga VG10 or Tora Blue #2 - I am questioning if having another Shiro Kamo is redundant. But it is 'just' the petty.

I was also considering the Shiro #2 by by Yoshikazu Tanaka or by Masashi. But since my Gyuto is already a Shiro #2, I should probably look into a different steel.

---

Questionnaire:

LOCATION
Germany

KNIFE TYPE
Nakiri

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese Wa handle

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
300-350€ total (including shipping and 30% VAT+import tax from non EU countries)

KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for.
Slicing vegetables

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
-

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Push

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Better food release, less wedging, different aesthetics

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Walnut cutting board

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
I have a SP 1k & 5k and leather strop. But I am fairly inexperienced since sharpening is a somewhat rare task. Got those angle guide wedges and sharpies as well to be extra careful.

 

[pewe]

Hello @nickkon1
That would be my choice.
Greetings from Germany.

https://www.japan-messer-shop.de/Me...er-/Wakui-V2-Nakiri-18-cm-nicht-rostfrei.html

 

[jaydee]

Maybe there is some room to negotiate:
Toyama nakiri
sure one of the best.
i am very happy with my knot handcrafted nakiri which is also at the upper end of your budget. Nice convex grind.

There is also a whole thread about the best convex grinds that could be interesting:
Best convex grinds

 

[nickkon1]

Significantly over 300€ and pretty much 350€ absolute max. would be my limit. While money isnt an issue, I dont want to spent that much on something to "try" without properly knowing what I actually look for in knives. But I might venture into that area in the future after gaining more experience.

There is also a whole thread about the best convex grinds that could be interesting:
Best convex grinds

Are there more recommended overview threads like this? When researching using the search and google for my other knives and this one, I mostly found threads about specific knives or others looking for a recommendation but less about general knife knowledge (e.g. Takefu vs. Sakai vs. Sanjo, stainless steels / vg10 vs sg2)

 

[jaydee]

Are there more recommended overview threads like this?

Pretty sure many things have been discussed at length.
Also my opinion, that a nakiri should neither be a laser (too sticky) nor a workhose (just too fat to easily go through dense veg.) is just one of many opinions.

I take the freedom and quote a useful post from @Benuser that might help getting better search results:
"You might want to have a look at the huge archive that has been built here since. Over the site's search engine, I prefer Google's 'site:'-function. E.g. search site:kitchenknifeforums.com term1 AND term2"

Where are you located in germany? Is borrowing a nakiri an option? (I´m in Fürstenwalde BTW)
Spending 300€ on a knife that you might end up not using is kinda crazy.
That said I´m sure you could sell the Toyama from above for the same price easily.

Also: nakiri profiles can be quite different too so that could make or break if you like to work with it.

 

[Corradobrit1]

These Morihei Hisamoto Aogami Super nakiri are seriously underrated and a bargain. Supposedly TF product with one of the best HT in the business.

https://tetogi.com/products/morihei...65mm-ho-wood-act?_pos=14&_sid=27a88b0c1&_ss=r
I can't see an EU retailer with stock at the moment but you could get one from Ai and Om in Canada. Not sure if that price includes GST which should be deducted if you ship to EU.

https://www.aiandomknives.com/colle...me-stainless-clad-nakiri-165mm-ho-wood-handle

 

[jaydee]

These Morihei Hisamoto Aogami Super nakiri are seriously underrated and a bargain.

Coincidentally I have one of these and yes, the grind and the steel is very nice (although I still am not sure if it is much better than other AS).
Not a big fan of the profile though, it has bit of round belly (pizza-cutter-style) that hopefully grinds out soon.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I have the 210 gyuto version of the Shiro Kamo Tora line. It is superb. It's a thinner grind than other of Kamo's lines I've had and one of my best knives for hard dense vegetable like sweet potato or squash. Not quite a laser, but not far off either. Good, hard steel too I've been pleased with edge retention. If he made a 180 nakiri in that line I'd have bought one already.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Coincidentally I have one of these and yes, the grind and the steel is very nice (although I still am not sure if it is much better than other AS).
Not a big fan of the profile though, it has bit of round belly (pizza-cutter-style) that hopefully grinds out soon.

Yes it all depends on your preference for profile and cutting style. I can see a long flat edge being better for users who like to chop.

 

[WifeNotUnderstand]

Go for the Toyama - its an amazing blade and if you don't like it you can sell it for close to what you you got it for

I have had a Yoshi SKD Hakata (close to a Nakiri with a tip), A kamo R2 Nakiri and a Toyama 180 Nakiri

Yoshi was thin at the edge with great FnF and a great cutter
Kamo was a thin, hard, light cutter - after a quick strop it was like cutting with a plasma torch!
Toyama is weighty, tall, convex, classy and a step above the other two - its the only one i have kept


The Wakui above looks like a great option as well

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Welcome to the wonderful world of better knives and good for you to tackle sharpening early on!

Let's unpack a couple things...

Trying different steels is great, but, my personal opinion is that it should be pretty low on the consideration list. If you want a steel for specific reasons, okay, but I would not avoid knives in the name steel diversity. Now, speaking of steels, heat treatment and grind matter and the steel name and nomenclature only tell us so much. But, without going down that road just now and taking things at face value, it's hard to compare VG10 and SG2/R2. Yes they are both stainless but they are both pretty different steels. VG10 gets a bad rap but done right it is a good steel. It can be stubborn to deburr even in it's best form and there is also a lot of meh to crap VG10 out there. SG2/R2 is a very good stainless but it is also usually quite hard and can be chippy and can be more of a sharpening challenge, especially when learning.

Since you are new to sharpening, I'd encourage you to consider Ginsan/Silver 3 for your early stainless acquisitions. Maybe not in this specific case but something to keep in mind. It sharpens up very nicely and while it won't have some of the attractive properties of of either VG10 or SG2, it is still a really nice kitchen cutlery steel and an excellent option.

Food release... I struggle with this one because my personal experience is that really good food release is not super common and can often come with other compromises. I've just come to a place where my expectations here have been lowered. Not that I want to have to pry potato slices off my blade but I also don't mind carrot slices riding up a bit and then falling off. Food release can be influenced by technique and to some degree by the finish.

For me, it is the cut that comes first. That isn't to say I don't want some food release, just that how it performs across different products and in different cutting styles is what I prioritize.

Also, choil shots are only a vague tool. Don't put too much stock into them. They certainly can tell us a lot, but they are also often quite misleading. Sometimes they look great only to have a bulge further down the blade. Other times they could look chunky but it could just be a stray hammer strike that bulged the end or it could have distinct taper after that point. Fine to look at and consider but just be cautious when using it to judge overall profile and performance. Research is the best way to get an understanding of that.

Now, all of that said, I'm going to recommend something outside of what you described. I tend to not do that but I'm going to in this case because I feel it is worth it.

The Toyama that @jaydee recommended is no doubt an outstanding knife with a stellar reputation and the knife I'm going to recommend may well actually be made by him despite the marketing and brand name. And that is the Watanabe Pro 180mm nakiri:
https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/nakkiri.htm
Many forumites consider this the pinnacle of nakiri-ness and for good reason. It is an outstanding example of the design with excellent steel execution. You get good length and a taller height with a versatile profile that allows for a variety of technique. It has some heft without being heavy and is very well balanced. The grind is excellent and very much done in the Sanjo style of thicker spine, very thin edge. The slicing performance is excellent and they can handle everything from fine dice of garlic to hearty heads of cabbage.

These knives often come with an at or nearly at zero edge grind. Meaning the sides of the blade taper all the down to the cutting edge with no distinct secondary bevel. This can make them a tiny bit chippy at first. A slightly chippy edge is not terribly uncommon with Japanese knives and fortunately is easy to resolve. You can raise your angle up and make a few passes on a stone on each side for a quick micro-bevel or just sharpen in a new edge bevel. Don't let that intimidate you, it is easy and we can walk you through it if need be. And again, sooner or later, if you buy enough, you'll encounter this issue.

It is extremely hard to beat a Wat Pro 180 in any capacity but especially when starting out. It's just an excellent knife that cuts very well but inspires confidence at the same time. That knife can serve as a base comparison for a lot of things going forward.

I would, at a minimum, get the D-shaped handle upgrade and not settle for the plastic ferrule of the base model. I know it shows out of stock at the moment but Shinichi gets them in and out frequently so I'd just email and ask when he'll have one.

My Wat Pro is no longer my daily driver but that is because my personal preferences have been honed and tweaked and I've a couple other blades that suit me more specifically. I was able to do that in large part due to using the Wat Pro so much and if I had to go back to it, I'd offer few if any protests.

 

[esoo]

I can't see an EU retailer with stock at the moment but you could get one from Ai and Om in Canada. Not sure if that price includes GST which should be deducted if you ship to EU.
https://www.aiandomknives.com/colle...me-stainless-clad-nakiri-165mm-ho-wood-handle

Ai and Om's prices do not include GST.

 

[timebard]

One more option to consider is an Okubo nakiri from Knife Japan. Easily within budget, lots of character, and a lower convex grind with fairly good release.

https://knifejapan.com/okubo-kajiya-nakiri-bocho-180mm-aogami-2/
Downside is that finish may be a little rougher than others mentioned here and it may be a bit thick behind the edge. I have a slightly bigger version of the one above and it came to me a decent cutter but not great due to some wedging. After some thinning it performs very well and is a lot of fun. Others have reported better out of the box geometry though. If you reach out to Michael (owner of KJ) he can probably help make sure you get an example that works for your needs.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

One more option to consider is an Okubo nakiri from Knife Japan. Easily within budget, lots of character, and a lower convex grind with fairly good release.

https://knifejapan.com/okubo-kajiya-nakiri-bocho-180mm-aogami-2/
Downside is that finish may be a little rougher than others mentioned here and it may be a bit thick behind the edge. I have a slightly bigger version of the one above and it came to me a decent cutter but not great due to some wedging. After some thinning it performs very well and is a lot of fun. Others have reported better out of the box geometry though. If you reach out to Michael (owner of KJ) he can probably help make sure you get an example that works for your needs.

Knife Japan currently owns my nakiri heart.

The Homi just keeps slipping into my hand, day after day...
https://knifejapan.com/shop-by-brand/homi-kajiya-yamaguchi/

 

[SwampDonkey]

I happen to have both the Wat Pro and Okubo 180 nakiris, top and bottom of pic, respectively. If you want heavier, better food release, and ironclad (easier to thin/maintain but reactive) go Okubo. If you want something a little thinner, a little lighter, but still good convex food release and stainless clad, go Watanabe Pro. The both have exceptional iterations of aogami #2 core steel, so don't sweat edge retention or sharpening difference. It's all grind and style.

For what it's worth, the Okubo is probably my favorite nakiri. They're close though.

 

[esoo]

As someone who keeps buying nakiris and then focusing on gyutos instead, I'd say one of the things to consider is the weight. I've handled ones that are 120-140g and then ones that are 220g. The weight gives them a completely different cutting feeling and I've personally come to prefer the heavier side. I just like the weight of the knife doing it's own cutting.

I'm going to throw this out there since his work seems to be good - you could always ask @Knot Handcrafted to make you something. Pricing seems to be in your range. An example of his work is here:
https://www.knothandcrafted.com/product/180mm-stainless-nakiri
One thing to understand is that it can be a journey to get the perfect knife. You may luck out and find it on the first try, but you'll never know until you get your second or third to compare to it. As I said, you may get a light nakiri and it's awesome for you, but then you try a heavier (or bigger one) and discover that is even better (or not).

 

[SwampDonkey]

@esoo Has a great point. Many folks are caught off guard by the forward balance point of nakiri. They're supposed to have that, and I concur with him that heavier=happier for them. My Wat Pro is 200 g while the Okubo is 234 g.

 

[the_jest]

I happen to have both the Wat Pro and Okubo 180 nakiris, top and bottom of pic, respectively. If you want heavier, better food release, and ironclad (easier to thin/maintain but reactive) go Okubo. If you want something a little thinner, a little lighter, but still good convex food release and stainless clad, go Watanabe Pro. The both have exceptional iterations of aogami #2 core steel, so don't sweat edge retention or sharpening difference. It's all grind and style.

View attachment 295882

Which handle is that on your Wat Pro?

 

[SwampDonkey]

Which handle is that on your Wat Pro?

The regular D-shaped burnt chestnut with plastic ferrule. It's comfortable

 

[jacobwilder5]

I tried out a decent number of Nakiri’s recently and three stood out from the rest. Toyama kasumi 210, Wat pro 180, and Wakui v2 165.

Of those, the best cutter was the Toyama, best food release was the Wat, and the Wakui a good balance of the two.

I’ve found myself grabbing for the Wakui the most for daily home cooking but all are excellent.

 

[jaydee]

This could be interesting:
Nakiri comparison