Stainless Steel Gyuto Suggestions

[BlueVelcro]

New to the forum and a relative novice to the world of high end knives. I am looking for some suggestions for a gyuto.

I currently have two Nao Yamamoto kurouchi carbon steel kurouchi santokus (only large one small) that I picked up on a trip to Japan. I didn't know much about the maker when I bought them, but have been very happy with the performance. However, I am looking for something to add to my collection that is easier to maintain. Primarily, I would like something I don't have to clean immediately after using for when I have guests (who are generally skilled home cooks but might not know what to do with carbon steel) and for myself when I have a lot going on in the kitchen (I don't plan to leave it dirty in the sink for hours, but I'd like to not have to worry about it immediately). I have been using a Global Chefs Knife in those scenarios and would like to upgrade.

I am a sucker for a unusual finish and have been looking at the following knives but am open to all suggestions:

https://www.japanny.com/collections...tan-rosewood-handle-ferrule-honduras-rosewood
https://www.hocho-knife.com/yoshimi...knife-210mm-with-black-ring-octagonal-handle/
I've filled out most of the questionnaire below for additional info. Thanks for the help!

LOCATION
What country are you in?

USA (Houston, Texas)

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Gyuto, maybe a petty knife as well.

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Probably Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

Yes, I am looking for something easier to maintain than the carbon

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

$400

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

Looking for something versatile. Don't intend to use for bones.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Global 8 inch Chef Knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Depends on what I'm doing but I default to pinch grip.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

push cut, slice

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Easier to maintain than my carbon steel, Better aesthetics - looking for an interesting finish or pattern.

 

[reagan]

I really like the Takamura R2 series for stainless. I use this when I’m bartending and working with a lot of citrus.

I only have the petty but I assume the gyuto is similar. Quite thin and awesome cutters. It is a western handle though.

 

[M1k3]

Gengetsu Semi-stainless. Tanaka Ginsan. Yoshikane SKD or SLD.

The Gengetsu and Yoshikane options are SemiStainless core, stainless cladding, so some care will be needed to prevent rust. But them being wet for 15-20 minutes won't be an issue.

The Tanaka is stainless.

 

[M1k3]

The Takamura are nice, albeit lasery, options also. Handles are slightly on the small side, but, not horribly small.

 

[VicWire]

I would recommend to take a look at the Shizuku series from Kurosaki instead of Fujin.
VG10 seems to be a complicated steel, some like it, some don't (see reacent threads on the forum). SG2/R2 is a safer bet imo.

 

[sidey]

WTS - 240 Yoshikane SKD Nashiji Gyuto K&S Amekiri


Buy this one please, i must not!

 

[jacko9]

I like the Konosuke HD2 Semi-Stainless I've had one for 5 years and I don't know why it's called semi-stainless since it's so trouble free.

https://www.**************.com/kohd2cugy24.html
Or from another vendor (a supporter of this forum)

https://www.toshoknifearts.com/collections/konosuke-monosteel/products/hd2-gyuto

 

[nexus1935]

Lots to choose from with that budget - some choices from the aesthetics perspective:

Kurosaki has a selection of different finishes, but some do have a thicker spine than others (and they'd need the thickness for the depth of imprints). Other than the Fujin and Shizuku already mentioned, the Raijin line is a cobalt special steel (I've read it's VG-10 with cobalt added in) with a nice pattern. There's also a newer Senko line in SG2 that has a mirror looking diamond pattern.

Another striking knife is the Yoshimi Kato SG2 Damascus. It's sometimes advertised as "black damascus" because the powder is darkened (somehow?) to create a higher contrast damascus finish.

 

[M1k3]

VG-10 has cobalt in it.

 

[nexus1935]

VG-10 has cobalt in it.

Oh I didn't know that. Then I wonder what makes the cobalt special steel so special...

 

[M1k3]

Oh I didn't know that. Then I wonder what makes the cobalt special steel so special...

Schrödinger's cat.

 

[Nemo]

the Raijin line is a cobalt special steel (I've read it's VG-10 with cobalt added in) with a nice pattern.

There's also a newer Senko line in SG2 that has a mirror looking diamond pattern.

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=VG-10,Cobalt Special&ni=4001,6664&hrn=1&gm=0
CSS has more Cr, Mo & Co than VG10. It also has a bit of W. I've never used it (I'd be interested to know how it performs) although the composition makes me worry about lots of large, soft, gummy Cr carbides and possibly difficult deburring. This is obviously very sensitive to the heat treament, which you would expect to be pretty good in Takefu knife village (especially given that it's a Takefu steel).

 

[BlueVelcro]

Lots to choose from with that budget - some choices from the aesthetics perspective:

Kurosaki has a selection of different finishes, but some do have a thicker spine than others (and they'd need the thickness for the depth of imprints). Other than the Fujin and Shizuku already mentioned, the Raijin line is a cobalt special steel (I've read it's VG-10 with cobalt added in) with a nice pattern. There's also a newer Senko line in SG2 that has a mirror looking diamond pattern.

Another striking knife is the Yoshimi Kato SG2 Damascus. It's sometimes advertised as "black damascus" because the powder is darkened (somehow?) to create a higher contrast damascus finish.

Thanks, I like the look of the Yoshimi Kato you mentioned.

What is the downside of a thicker spine on the Kurosakis?

 

[nexus1935]

Thanks, I like the look of the Yoshimi Kato you mentioned.

What is the downside of a thicker spine on the Kurosakis?

The thicker spine is a trade off. If you think of an axe-like shape: on larger items (like a squash) the thickness will wedge it apart and create friction when cutting; but at the same time, on smaller items they'll have better food separation because the thickness will push the food off to the side. Thicker spines also give the knives a bit more heft, where heavier blades will "fall through" the food with less pushing effort.

Thin blades (ie. lasers) are the opposite, they'll glide through with minimal friction, but wet foods may stick to the blade. Some blade finishes try to minimize that sticking (like a migaki finish), while mirror polish blades would be the worst for that.

 

[Nemo]

Thanks, I like the look of the Yoshimi Kato you mentioned.

What is the downside of a thicker spine on the Kurosakis?

I would add that a knife that is thin all the way up may feel a little flimsy and and may twist slightly in tall hard food. Good technique will prevent this.

A knife with a thicker spine will feel more robust, but as mentioned, may wedge (a little) in taller foods.

I prefer the latter (within reason) but many (maybe more) prefer the former.

 

[Renzwerkz]

Have you seen any Ginsanko steel (Silver3)...?
Probably it can be another choice of stainless steel lineups..

 

[Nemo]

Schrödinger's cat.

Hmmm... I'm interpreting this as meaning that the knife is made of all possible steels until the exact moment that you find out which steel it is made from wherupaon its probability wave collapses and it is henceforth only able to be made of the one alloy.

For me it's actually pretty true that if I had no information about the steel used, I could probably only classify steels into a few categories from sharpening feel. E.g.: simple carbons/ complex carbons and semistainless/ simple stainless (AEBL and G3)/ complex stainless/ reasonable quality soft stainless/ cheap awful gummy soft stainless.

 

[Mat1893]

Hmmm... I'm interpreting this as meaning that the knife is made of all possible steels until the exact moment that you find out which steel it is made from wherupaon its probability wave collapses and it is henceforth only able to be made of the one alloy.

For me it's actually pretty true that if I had no information about the steel used, I could probably only classify steels into a few categories from sharpening feel. E.g.: simple carbons/ complex carbons and semistainless/ simple stainless (AEBL and G3)/ complex stainless/ reasonable quality soft stainless/ cheap awful gummy soft stainless.

Where would you fit the Rwl-34 into your categories ?
Cheers

 

[M1k3]

Same as 154CM

 

[jacko9]

When I first started looking for a Japanese knife I was told that getting a Konosuke HD2 was going to be too flimsy. After 5 years I can say that is not true it has held up just fine and never given me any staining or patina and I leave it on the cutting board all meal.

 

[Nemo]

Where would you fit the Rwl-34 into your categories ?
Cheers

Haven't used or shatpened RWL34 or 154CM. Or VG10 for that matter. 154CPM would be complex stainless, like R2/SG2.

Please don't take this as some kind of gospel. This is just my personal experience and a statement on where I am at the moment. I may well be able to refine it with furter experience.

In fact, on further reflection, I can distinguish between softer Japanese steels like AUS8 and harder, more complex PM ones like SG2. And I may well be able to distinguish something like VG10 if I had sharpened that.

 

[Mat1893]

Haven't used or shatpened RWL34 or 154CM. Or VG10 for that matter. 154CPM would be complex stainless, like R2/SG2.

Please don't take this as some kind of gospel. This is just my personal experience and a statement on where I am at the moment. I may well be able to refine it with furter experience.

In fact, on further reflection, I can distinguish between softer Japanese steels like AUS8 and harder, more complex PM ones like SG2. And I may well be able to distinguish something like VG10 if I had sharpened that.

Thanks for your detailed answer.

I have been looking for the “best” stainless steel for a professional chef since a while.

But unfortunately it seems that carbon and high carbon steels are developing much quicker comparing to stainless steels in recent times .

I would love makers/craftsman would try to develop / improve/upgrade characteristics of stainless steels but I don’t see any advancements within the foreseeable future .

 

[Barmoley]

Thanks for your detailed answer.

I have been looking for the “best” stainless steel for a professional chef since a while.

But unfortunately it seems that carbon and high carbon steels are developing much quicker comparing to stainless steels in recent times .

I would love makers/craftsman would try to develop / improve/upgrade characteristics of stainless steels but I don’t see any advancements within the foreseeable future .

What do you mean by carbon and high carbon developing much quicker than stainless? Most of the development in the last 50 years has been around high alloy and stainless steels. Powdered metallurgy like manufacturing has allowed for many steels with compositions and characteristics that were difficult or impossible to do before. There are plenty of great stainless steels out there. Best steel doesn't exist because of the compromises that are involved in choosing a steel. Depending on what is important to you in your knife you can choose a maker that could best deliver what you want. Steel is important, but is only a part of what makes a great knife.

 

[Nemo]

Thanks for your detailed answer.

I have been looking for the “best” stainless steel for a professional chef since a while.

But unfortunately it seems that carbon and high carbon steels are developing much quicker comparing to stainless steels in recent times .

I would love makers/craftsman would try to develop / improve/upgrade characteristics of stainless steels but I don’t see any advancements within the foreseeable future .

I'm not 100% sure that I've understood you correctly, so please tell me if I have misunderstood.

I would say that there is no "best" steel, it's all about tradeoffs. Therefore about deciding what is important to you. What are the features in stainless steels that you would like to see developed?

Carbon steels aren't really developing much. Most of the commonly used carbon steels have been around for decades (or longer). The benefit of carbon steels is the ease of sharpening (due to fine grain and carbide structure and low carbide volume) and the abilty to hold an acute edge angle (edge stability) due to adequate hardness and low carbide volume. You can't really do much more to the steel composition than has already been done and still have these benefits. The downside of these steels is limited abrasion resistance and limited corrosion resistance.

Highly alloyed steels (including stainless steels) on the other hand have developed a fair bit in the last several decades, with the development of powder metallurgy (PM) steels which allow higher carbide compostions. There have been at least 3 generations/ refinements of PM technology.

The benefit of highly alloyed steels is that the high carbide volume imparts abrasion resistance and certain alloying elements (especially Cr) can impart a degree of corrosion resistance. The downside is that high carbide volume limits edge acuity (edge stability) and large carbide size limits edge refinement (ability to hold a highly polished edge). They can also be more trouble to sharpen and especially to deburr.

PM steels do limit the size of individual carbides and their grain size can also be quite fine (the knifesteel nerd in me surmises that this is bcause there is less need to tradoff grain size vs carbide size in the heat treatment, but that may be a bit esoteric for this discussion). Some will hold a polish almost as well as carbon steels and their edge stability will allow sharpening at 15 degrees per side or less. These (SG2/R2, SRS15 and CPM154) are may favourite stainless steels, although I do also like G3 and AEBL.

If your priorities are edge retention and corrosion resistance, it's hard to go past a steel like SG2/R2, SRS15 or CPM154. They sharpen and deburr reasonably easily (but you won't mistake them for a carbon steel), take at least a 4k polish and will hold an edge between 11-15 dps and have pretty significant edge retention.

Edit: Just realised that @Barmoley said essentially the same thing.

 

[daveb]

Everytime i see a thread delving into the mystique of carbon I'm reminded of one of the most sought after makers in the kitchen knife world.

Bloodroot will make knives from tie rods on a 57 chevy, a plow blade from an old John Deere and assotered ball bearings. And folks (including myself) wii line up trying to buy them.

Kinda makes me snigger.

At the end of the day it's the maker and what they do with the their choice of steel that matters.

 

[M1k3]

Everytime i see a thread delving into the mystique of carbon I'm reminded of one of the most sought after makers in the kitchen knife world.

Bloodroot will make knives from tie rods on a 57 chevy, a plow blade from an old John Deere and assotered ball bearings. And folks (including myself) wii line up trying to buy them.

Kinda makes me snigger.

At the end of the day it's the maker and what they do with the their choice of steel that matters.

Some even use old files... And leave the texture

 

[Nemo]

Some even use old files... And leave the texture

And the geometry

 

[daveb]

Hotties can sell anything.

 

[M1k3]

Hotties can sell anything.

So, you'd buy a Mercer from a hottie?

 

[Mat1893]

I'm not 100% sure that I've understood you correctly, so please tell me if I have misunderstood.

I would say that there is no "best" steel, it's all about tradeoffs. Therefore about deciding what is important to you. What are the features in stainless steels that you would like to see developed?

Carbon steels aren't really developing much. Most of the commonly used carbon steels have been around for decades (or longer). The benefit of carbon steels is the ease of sharpening (due to fine grain and carbide structure and low carbide volume) and the abilty to hold an acute edge angle (edge stability) due to adequate hardness and low carbide volume. You can't really do much more to the steel composition than has already been done and still have these benefits. The downside of these steels is limited abrasion resistance and limited corrosion resistance.

Highly alloyed steels (including stainless steels) on the other hand have developed a fair bit in the last several decades, with the development of powder metallurgy (PM) steels which allow higher carbide compostions. There have been at least 3 generations/ refinements of PM technology.

The benefit of highly alloyed steels is that the high carbide volume imparts abrasion resistance and certain alloying elements (especially Cr) can impart a degree of corrosion resistance. The downside is that high carbide volume limits edge acuity (edge stability) and large carbide size limits edge refinement (ability to hold a highly polished edge). They can also be more trouble to sharpen and especially to deburr.

PM steels do limit the size of individual carbides and their grain size can also be quite fine (the knifesteel nerd in me surmises that this is bcause there is less need to tradoff grain size vs carbide size in the heat treatment, but that may be a bit esoteric for this discussion). Some will hold a polish almost as well as carbon steels and their edge stability will allow sharpening at 15 degrees per side or less. These (SG2/R2, SRS15 and CPM154) are may favourite stainless steels, although I do also like G3 and AEBL.

If your priorities are edge retention and corrosion resistance, it's hard to go past a steel like SG2/R2, SRS15 or CPM154. They sharpen and deburr reasonably easily (but you won't mistake them for a carbon steel), take at least a 4k polish and will hold an edge between 11-15 dps and have pretty significant edge retention.

Edit: Just realised that @Barmoley said essentially the same thing.

I apologise but since English is not my first language Maybe I didn’t express myself correctly .

What I wanted to say was not related to the steel composition or the metallurgy.

My previous consideration , which is based on “limited” personal experience was more related to the craftmans/ knife makers.

Unfortunately most of the time I asked some of the most well respected craftmans for a custom knife I was told that they don’t use stainless steel.

In regards to the best stainless . I was meaning the one that most suit in a professional environment. As a Chef I probably would say sharpeness and edge retention. ( and of course ability to resist of corrosion ).

I hope I have been more clear this time and I apologise again .
Those are only personal opinions.
And as so they might be wrong .

Thanks anyway for your polite reply .