Stone progressions and burrs

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Twotimehojo

Twotimehojo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
90
Reaction score
35
Location
North America
So with my newly double thick SG500 and atoma 140 I went to work with P3 pressure (most) on my global santoku. And within minutes, got myself a very obvious burr. Flipped and got one on the other side. I was very stoked! Then flipped with reduced pressure (P2) and by the time I was at P1, I barely felt a burr. I then proceeded to go to my next stone, a Cerax 1000. And then a Rika 5000.

So a few questions to get me to move to the next level.

I felt lost burr wise after the SG500. I reduced it enough that by the time I got to Cerax 1000, I felt not sure what to do with respect to length of time on stone and pressure on Cerax 1000. Start at P3 pressure and do passes down to P2 and P1?

Do you all feel a burr until the very last stone??!! Will one of my AS or carbon knives help with the learning curve? I have been avoiding my good carbon knives so far but feel I am almost ready.

The knife was visibly sharper after I was done. Difference with newspaper was significant. Definitely getting the hang of this!

Thanks!
 
I don’t feel it on 5k rika, but when I deburr on cardboard I feel it. Maybe up to 2k-3k by feel?

I read some folks with lots of experience talking about not getting to burr since were technically creating an apex and when we create a burr it’s gone too far. That sounds like some Jedi sh!t tho.
 
I guess that is part of my question. I create a burr on my SG500 and then after that, I am lowering the pressure to deburr on that one side. Or am I still creating a burr on each side as I move to P2 and P1 pressure. I imagine I am still creating a new burr on each side as I progress through each pressure but the burr is just smaller. But then it becomes so small, I cannot feel it it.

So do the jedi's continually great new burrs, but smaller, as the stones and pressure progresses and decreases respectively?
 
I'm no master, but I raise the burr on my initial edge especially with an unfamiliar knife. I usually dont start lower than 1k, and with my personal knives, I often start even finer.

If I'm just touching up a fine edge, I will not raise a burr. So my gut feeling is that burr raising should stop around 1-2k and just focus on feel and polishing. (Please jump in here experts if that isnt a good idea.) I get a lot of, I dont know what to call them, micro burrs maybe and a couple strops on leather shorts those out. Theyre just a slight ridge that I feel where edge isnt completely straight. With different steels that doesnt always work though. I've been playing around with ark stones in those situations. Anyway, maybe some other folks do this, but I'll deal with burr/microburr after 1k or so with the ark/strop and transition to my finishing stone around 4-8k. There should be no burrs around by then.

Just my 2 cents. I'm far from good at this.
 
All the heavy pressure I use is on the coarsest stone. After that, you don’t need it. (Edit: I do use moderate pressure on the subsequent stones for speed.) I do usually feel a very slight burr all the way to the end, but on a higher grit stone it’s more something you feel as you use the stone rather than something you feel with your fingers on the side of the knife. (The three finger test is pretty good for subtle burrs though.) I also usually do a compound bevel, raising the angle a bit with each stone after polishing the previous bevel briefly.

I also think three stone progressions are often overkill for kitchen knife edges, especially if you’re raising the sharpening angle with the last stone. Glass 500 -> Rika probably works fine. Then again, the SG 500 -> Gesshin 2k -> Rika -> Aizu -> Suita -> 10k natural finisher psychopaths will disagree with me.

“Oh believe me, my good fellow, without the drop from a high grit synthetic to a middle grit natural, my edge would have that pedestrian feeling with which I am sure you are well acquainted. It is only with this progression that I am able to produce the most divinely refined, yet toothy, edges.”
 
Last edited:
Yeah as you go up in grit it should be less burry. here's my basic game plan applied to 1k,2/3k,5k

1. sharpen each side with moderate pressure 2 to 4 times per finger length (initial pass.) i'm feeling for burr and edge sharpness. Sometimes another pass on each side. it's better to go too light than too heavy. I did some heavy pressure and it creates some unevenness.

2. then half that pressure on each side same as step 1. Sometimes i feel or see fine threads of metal, which are the burr coming off. A year or so ago, i'd see a lot more of this- over doing it. I'm not feeling too much of burr after this.

3. Then do some super light ones to semi deburr this is pretty fast and loose. At this point all but the finest burr should be gone.

4. Then i do my cardboard thing edge trailing. Some folks do cork, wood. On the first couple passes, i'll feel some kind of slight scratchiness- this is whatever is left of the microburr. After a few more passes, it'll feel smooth. i'm good. I don't know if everyone does this after every stone, but it works for me.

I'm certainly not a master and more towards the other end, but my 1k is now really sharp, night and day from where i was last year. Remember the sharpie, if you're second guessing yourself

I'm sure we'll get some input from bad ass sharpeners.
 
ian said:
All the heavy pressure I use is on the coarsest stone. After that, you don’t need it. I do usually feel a very slight burr all the way to the end, but on a higher grit stone it’s more something you feel as you use the stone rather than something you feel with your fingers on the side of the knife. (The three finger test is pretty good for subtle burrs though.) I also usually do a compound bevel, raising the angle a bit with each stone after polishing the previous bevel briefly.

I also think three stone progressions are often overkill for kitchen knife edges, especially if you’re raising the sharpening angle with the last stone. Glass 500 -> Rika probably works fine. Then again, the SG 500 -> Gesshin 2k -> Rika -> Aizu -> Suita -> 10k natural finisher psychopaths will disagree with me.

“Oh believe me, my good fellow, without the drop from a high grit synthetic to a middle grit natural, my edge would have that pedestrian feeling with which I am sure you are well acquainted. It is only with this progression that I am able to produce the most divinely refined, yet toothy, edges.”
Click to expand...
I recently tried SP 120 -> 10k. The edge felt divinely heavenly in use. 😎
 
Not a badass sharpener.

I don't stress the pressure deal too much. P3 and all that. My advice? Find something comfortable and easy and raise a burr. Yes, you might need a little more time and pressure in spots but just let the knife and your hands tell you that. Let it be more natural. Get a burr on both sides, deburr, and then lighter pressure and repeat. Do that two or three times getting lighter each time but do not sacrifice stability in the name of light (or heavy in the beginning) pressure.

Angle reigns supreme.

I raise a burr on all my grits and you should definitely be able to detect one off 1k. The burr tells you are apexed and have done your job. Then it is just about burr weakening and removal until the next stone.

I have very limited experience above around 2-3k so can't say there.

Also, don't underestimate the value of good light and looking at the edge for reflections. A loupe is helpful too.
 
A few remarks.
Not sure whether this pressure approach makes much sense in general.
I do apply some pressure on the first strokes on the coarsest stone, when I want to remove a bit of steel.
For deburring, even on the coarsest stone, I apply the lightest pressure. I want to abrade it. Not to push it to the other side and have it only flip.
Once the bevels have met, and they did, as there was an obvious burr, I don't have to do any effort to appear again on finer stones. If I don't apply much pressure it's no new burr. These are remnants from the old one created on the coarse stone.
Now a warning. Stone sharpening of a Global can be quite tricky. Burrs are hard to get, hard to get rid of, reappear after a while, as if there is some plasticity in the steel. Has all to do with the purposely large carbides.
An extra reason to be very cautious with pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if the burr with the first stone had appeared before the bevels actually met. Only way to make sure: use marker and a loupe.
 
Last edited:
Just sharpened two different knives - 500 -> 1200 -> 5k. I could feel the burr on every stone, BUT at 5k the burr is really small and I had to really work at 'feeling' it.. YMMV
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Not a badass sharpener.

I raise a burr on all my grits and you should definitely be able to detect one off 1k. The burr tells you are apexed and have done your job. Then it is just about burr weakening and removal until the next stone.

I have very limited experience above around 2-3k so can't say there.

Also, don't underestimate the value of good light and looking at the edge for reflections. A loupe is helpful too.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify. After you do burr weakening and removal on the first (coarser) stone, you are NOT raising a burr on the second less coarse stone? I guess thats where all the videos seem to gloss over or I am not listening well enough. Essentially I could use higher pressure on second stone and increase the burr, but thats not what I should do?

This global had some rough edges. So the SG500 made quick nice work. I am going to try and raise a burr on the 1k today and then deburr. The knife is sharp in cutting apples. The newspaper not so much. I am sure I have a toothy but relatively sharp edge.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
I believe it comes from Peter Nowlan on YouTube. If I remember right, he has four pressure "ratings". P4 might be 6lbs I think???
Click to expand...

I think he refers to 4 pressures. P4 is the highest. On the second stone, he uses only 3 pressures. And Peter refers to the second stone as refining the edge or polishing it. Not deburring it.
 
Twotimehojo said:
Just to clarify. After you do burr weakening and removal on the first (coarser) stone, you are NOT raising a burr on the second less coarse stone? I guess thats where all the videos seem to gloss over or I am not listening well enough. Essentially I could use higher pressure on second stone and increase the burr, but thats not what I should do?

This global had some rough edges. So the SG500 made quick nice work. I am going to try and raise a burr on the 1k today and then deburr. The knife is sharp in cutting apples. The newspaper not so much. I am sure I have a toothy but relatively sharp edge.
Click to expand...

I raise a burr on every stone. Course or fine. I've never bought into, or at least personally found success in, not forming a burr on finer grits. Now, as others said, the finer the stone the finer the burr and I may well not use the same hard pressure I did in the beginning of the courser stone but I still strive to raise one. This is why I prefer a more natural approach.

If we're talking a really dull and dropping down into the 300ish range, you're going to be using more pressure and raising a very obvious burr. But, if it just needs some maintenance and you're starting at say 1000ish, you won't need so much pressure an the burr will naturally be finer.

Again, once you get into the more polishing grits, I don't have the experience there to say.
 
Do you all look at the reflections on the edge to see if you are truly deburred? The edge should seem matte or dull. No shiny bits of light coming back at me?
 
Twotimehojo said:
I think he refers to 4 pressures. P4 is the highest. On the second stone, he uses only 3 pressures. And Peter refers to the second stone as refining the edge or polishing it. Not deburring it.
Click to expand...

There are a ton of approaches to sharpening and most of them work. But not all of them work for each individual. That's why there is a ton of approaches. Learn the fundamentals, soak in knowledge from broad sources, and experiment to find what works for you.

Don't try to force a single style or approach.
 
Twotimehojo said:
Do you all look at the reflections on the edge to see if you are truly deburred? The edge should seem matte or dull. No shiny bits of light coming back at me?
Click to expand...

Look at your knife in all stages. Really look it over when you start and note what you see. Look down the edge and at each side and roll it around in the light. Is that lint or a slight roll or burr remnant? And so on.

Then raise a burr on one side and look at it again. What does that look like from all directions?

What does it look like after the first stone? The second? Stropping? That's how you'll learn. I'm still a very tactile person for sharpening but your eyes detect a lot and will not lie to you.
 
I myself worked with the 4 different pressure levels for a long time and it worked very well for me.

Meanwhile, the more I get used to what I call "Zen Sharpening", the more I work with as little pressure as possible. But I have to say, it doesn't happen consciously, it just happens. At a certain point i forget everything, including the pressure exerted, and just let the stone do its job.

It sounds a little strange, but it works. And my results are better than ever.
 
One more thought about the burrformatin - when you reach the apex, a burr is created. It doesn't matter whether it is a "normal size" or a "micro-burr", it is and remains a burr that has to be removed.
 
I'd use a bit of @ian and @KingShapton while keeping @Benuser in mind.

Seriously, I think IF you can't feel the burr progression on the stones, then you have a problem in going to finer stones in how much time you can actually lose "chasing" a burr or deburring something you won't feel with your fingers anyway.

Remedy to this is to accept to work blindly with it. Just do as if you could feel it. The pressure level technique works for this - doing what was done on the last stone with less pressure. At some point, it will become very obvious to you, on any stone, what's happening with the burr by how the knife feels/sounds on the stone.

Then only you'll find your bearings in how you can actually cut down on useless steps/pressure levels, or do it purely feeling-based.
 
In general, in KKF discussions, it sounds to me like "micro" just means "pretty small", not anything like "impossible to see". Is that mostly right?
 
Don't know what you're referring to exactly but this thread is about burrs, and "pretty small" doesn't even apply to a burr out of the coarse stones, let alone one at the finer grit ranges. Micro does however - when you have "microns" in mind. A 5000 grit edge with a clinging burr might not register well with direct light verification. @Benuser will advocate for a 10x loupe to start see something about it. So yes, basically you're talking about something that not only is impossible to see directly or with conventional magnifiers, but also something that won't register with your fingertip. Unless you slice it - that will register alright.
 
A human hair is ~30 microns. I would argue your eyes can resolve sub micron because you can tell between a mirror finish and a matte finish :p

I think I read somewhere that your fingers can resolve patterns on the 10nm scale. I think 10 nm depth and like 100 nm wide patterns are distinguishable. So, I would guess that this "micro bevel" is actually below 0.1 microns. I bet someone has measured this... On another note, if your microbevel is less than 600 nm, you probably can't see it. So, I'd bet that micro-bevels you can feel but not see are submicrobevels ;)
 
Light reflection makes such small scale stuff readily seen - hence why the direct light method is still a good method. However catching a hair same color as its background will be much more difficult. Up to a point direct light works, then well not so easily as it may blend with what your eye catches of the bevel itself. As for finger touch, when your burr aligns well with the apex, it takes experience to sense it with a finger. Same as a hair - it may register, but may not. With finer stones I really advocate for getting to learn the feeling of a clean edge Then verifying, obviously. Problem with relying on visual clues at this level, especially when not so experienced, is that you'll focus on them rather than on feeling. Going blindly allows two things: focusing on feeling; in verifying after and locating burr remnants, you get to know if your method of deburring on feeling is efficient, and as you'll take back the blade to the stones knowing exactly where that remnant is located, you can focus again on feeling of such a thing on the surface of the stone.
 
FWIW this is almost exactly how I sharpen too. And sometimes not raise a noticeable burr on the initial stone either. But if it's a knife I don't know, then I will make sure I can feel it...

JakeLoveshighCarbon said:
I'm no master, but I raise the burr on my initial edge especially with an unfamiliar knife. I usually dont start lower than 1k, and with my personal knives, I often start even finer.

If I'm just touching up a fine edge, I will not raise a burr. So my gut feeling is that burr raising should stop around 1-2k and just focus on feel and polishing. (Please jump in here experts if that isnt a good idea.) I get a lot of, I dont know what to call them, micro burrs maybe and a couple strops on leather shorts those out. Theyre just a slight ridge that I feel where edge isnt completely straight. With different steels that doesnt always work though. I've been playing around with ark stones in those situations. Anyway, maybe some other folks do this, but I'll deal with burr/microburr after 1k or so with the ark/strop and transition to my finishing stone around 4-8k. There should be no burrs around by then.

Just my 2 cents. I'm far from good at this.
Click to expand...

I'd also mention, as I think someone said above... Globals are feckin weird and difficult things to sharpen (imo). I also learnt sharpening on Globals, and I learned a lot from the experience. If you can sharpen a blunt Global well then you'll find a good knife from Hitatchi carbon a doddle :)
 
When it comes to detecting very fine burrs by touch, I find it easier to use my nails than fingertips. A very light, high angle, short stropping motion. Just like lightly brushing your nail sequentially with every section of the blade, both sides. At least with me, the slight scraping of a tiny burr registers more easily this way. If it's completely in line with the edge it can be trickier.
Fine paper, like @Benuser said, usually tells the truth also.
 
Thank you all for the great information! A lingering question:

My current plan is try and create a burr on my coarsest stone, flip and create another one. Then use lowering pressures to decrease the size of the burr. That said I am still flipping a burr, just that its smaller right?

Then when moving to the next finer grit stone, I am still flipping sides BECAUSE I am still creating a burr on each side. The idea is that the burr is getting progressively smaller. Or if I cannot feel it, I can use my eyes and ears to help. Eyes with a loupe and the sound of how the knife is against the stone. Over time, I will develop my own technique using the above fundamentals as a foundation to become a better sharpener.

Is that a good understanding of what most folks said above?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top