Stones for Masamoto yanagiba?

[Lightfall]

Long story short I’m ready to start sharpening my Masamoto yanagiba rather than send it out, all my stones are no name that were used on shun + low quality knives and I would like to take the opportunity to replace them with a nicer + larger set.

I’ve watched the videos on single bevel sharpening by Japanese Knife Imports, as well as others, after reading the archives here but there is a paucity of consensus on what might be the “best” for this situation.

It’s my impression that I want a 1-2k stone a 3-4k stone and an ~8k stone. I intend to do this frequently. I know at some point I will want a lower grit but I don’t want to touch anything low grit until I’m more comfortable with this specific type of sharpening. I’m fairly certain my knife is still pretty close to good original specifications without much wear.

I’d prefer the largest stones and I think perhaps a natural stone for the polish range? I’m not entirely sure but I feel motivated to get started and I want to start off on the right foot (buy once cry once) without getting too bogged down with analysis paralysis.

Also, what vendor is the best for this sort of purchase? Thank you.

 

[ethompson]

I'd call Japanese Knife Imports and ask for their recommendations. They'll get you squared away nicely. If you want to fall down the natural stone rabbit hole for polishing, I'd recommend a soft suita for your finisher. Should be able to jump to that from a 3-6k stone easily enough and would also work for uraoshi.

 

[Lightfall]

Thanks, that’s exactly what I was focused on for that: I don’t want to blow my concavity on the uraoshi by hamfisting it and I’d like to get a nice natural polish up to the shinogi line, after all it’s a work of art in addition to a functional tool.

 

[Dan-]

I found with my single bevels even spending on Masamoto KS that the bevels weren’t really flat along the blade, and it took quite a bit of work on hamaguri to get a consistent bevel along the blade.

 

[Lightfall]

That’s one thing I was worried about!

 

[ethompson]

There will almost certainly be at least 1 low spot to deal with. Even with extremely expensive blades this is common and not indicative of a defect in manufacturing.

 

[Choppin]

SG220 or Gesshin 220 -> to even out the low spots (assuming they are there)
Gesshin 600 resinoid -> to erase the 220 scratches
Gesshin 6000 resinoid -> you can jump from the 600 to this and get a nice shiny core (also great for ura sharpening)

But yeah, Jon will probably be your best source here (for advice AND stones).

 

[ared715]

Cool progression reccomendations!

A koppa sized natural soft suita can cost around the same as a synthetic 8k, which won't offer the type of polishes that naturals will.

 

[Dan-]

There will almost certainly be at least 1 low spot to deal with. Even with extremely expensive blades this is common and not indicative of a defect in manufacturing.

Plus you should frame this as a chance to understand your knife and not as a chore. Just don’t be surprised when there are one or more ugly spots during initial polishing or sharpening.

 

[Lightfall]

I think I am going to try a progression of bester 1200 > arashiyama 6000.

The archives show a lot of support for the bester 1200 as a good all around stone that won’t break the bank and there seems to be a good amount of support for the arashiyama in the sushi chef community and in online videos and so forth.

I’m hoping this progressing is good to start with where I can add intermediaries and a natural finishing stone later.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

The Sigma Power ceramic (not the Select II) 2K is a stone that you should look up. It cuts faster than most 1K’s and finishes closer to a 3K. They are a VERY hard stone so they work well with single bevel knives where you need very flat surfaces. This stone can be hard to find though. My understanding that the new Naniwa hibiki line is made similarly hard, possibly using the same sintering/vitrification. These may be easier to obtain.

My favorite finisher for a yanagi is a Dan’s hard Arkansas. Note: this is not a Norton/Pike “hard”, and not a Dan’s “true hard”.) These are also extremely hard stones and I do recommend finishing one side up to about 400 grit sand paper and the other side to a polish. These stay extremely flat for a very long time. They finish similar to a 5K to 6K synthetic stone and retain the optimal amount of “tooth” for what yanagi’s do. This stone is one of the pinnacles for high end kitchen knives IMHO.

I recently acquired an Ohira Suita which appears to finish similar to the above Ark but is faster. I also have jnat straight razor finishers that combined with a koma nagura also deliver blazing knife edges. Some of these options are multiples the cost of the Dan’s hard Ark, and buying jnats is always a gamble. Consistency from one stone to the next, even from the same mine and layer, is quite a wide range.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Echoing some of what’s been said: do you want to sharpen or do you also want a kasumi polish? If you want to polish you pretty much need naturals and this is something I’ve never been able to get the hang of, but there are a lot of people on here who are pretty good.

Also yes, many single bevel or wide bevel knives may be hollow ground and/or have high and low spots. I has the same discussion with Jon when I bought a KS usuba, because that was the sort of thing I thought I was paying for with the KS over the KK. Turns out that this is not the case unless you get one that is fully hand finished on stones.

 

[Kawa]

The bester 1200 is a nice stone for your 'My knife is dull, but in good condition'.

Do soak it overnight before use. It will give you a lot more feedback.

 

[Lightfall]

Echoing some of what’s been said: do you want to sharpen or do you also want a kasumi polish? If you want to polish you pretty much need naturals and this is something I’ve never been able to get the hang of, but there are a lot of people on here who are pretty good.

Also yes, many single bevel or wide bevel knives may be hollow ground and/or have high and low spots. I has the same discussion with Jon when I bought a KS usuba, because that was the sort of thing I thought I was paying for with the KS over the KK. Turns out that this is not the case unless you get one that is fully hand finished on stones.

Well I sat down with these two stones for a few hours to try and get a feel for the state of the knife after 14 years of use. I am attaching some photos so you can see, I didn't want to go too far without a reality check.

Now that I am in I can say I think the chance of me achieving a satisfactory mirror type polish are pretty low with my skillset even with continued diligent practice. I managed to scratch it to hell too. I would be much better off with a cloudy kasumi finish to hide the imperfections, I don't think I want to roll the dice with natural finger stones would definitely prefer a predictable synthetic solution if one exists? I got the knife slicing paper, and the geometry all looks good from what I can gather, but the micro changes in the polished reflection bother me significantly because I can see every tiny imperfection amplified.

Where do I go from here?

 

[Kawa]

You can get it to mirror if you want to.
What gritt is this? Seems very coarse to give up already.

With the right lightning, even a true mirror has scratches. A perfect mirror doesnt exist.


I wouldnt chase the last low spot. You will grind them out the next time. Its a waste of metal for now, since you have to grind the whole knife to keep big bevel flat.
If you want to hide it as much as possible, then you should go for a hazy finish.

Don't expect a perfect, uniform scratched, finish in your first attempt. It's like anything else: there is a learning curve.

 

[Lightfall]

You can get it to mirror if you want to.
What gritt is this? Seems very coarse to give up already.

With the right lightning, even a true mirror has scratches. A perfect mirror doesnt exist.


I wouldnt chase the last low spot. You will grind them out the next time. Its a waste of metal for now, since you have to grind the whole knife to keep big bevel flat.
If you want to hide it as much as possible, then you should go for a hazy finish.

Don't expect a perfect, uniform scratched, finish in your first attempt. It's like anything else: there is a learning curve.

This was bester 1200 -> arashiyama 6000. I know I did something less than ideal I’m just not sure what it is exactly.

I would like to try a hazy finish, is there an easy (perhaps nontraditional?) method to doing so that doesn’t involve expensive natural Japanese stones?

I won’t chase the low spot for now I will use and grind as you suggest.

 

[Kawa]

You could try some sandpaper as a cheap way to look if you could remove more bigger scratches. It should be easily available in 2500p or higher. But I do think you even need something else in between, like 1500p -> 2000p sandpaper.

I think that the step 1200-6000 might be to big for scratch removel. Its works for edges maybe (dont know the arashiyama 6000. I do have the kitayama 8000 which I think is in the same family), since there is a way smaller contact patch. For a nice, even finish, you should do more steps. The next step should remove all the previous scratches, and so on (or atleast, as much as possible. The more, the better looking the result). Its up to you to find out which sequence and what gritts work on your material.

I don't know if your also chasing contrast. That's way out of my league.
Ive been polishing bowling balls for over 20 years, and surface finish is what matters most in that world. 500-4000 is a big difference from 500-1000-1500-2000-4000, by vision and by reaction on the lanes.

 

[Dan-]

Do you dress up in a polyester uniform with a name tag when you do that? (Sorry)

Here’s what a ginsan with stainless cladding looks like after 2-3 sharpening with a shapton glass 8k. It’s shiny but scuffed, but I think it’ll eventually get there. I’m making dinner (kari!) so please excuse the best knife type also being in the picture. If you click/touch the attachment it is way less blurry.

 

[Lightfall]

I am not chasing contrast between the steels what I really want is just an even hazy finish frankly an even hazy finish all over the blade would be nice.

It’s definitely sharp, but aesthetically I have a lot of work to sort out. So sandpaper then? What about abrasive pads like 3M stuff? Is that something people do?

I’ve polished automotive parts to a satin finish but that was usually with 3M pads and on aluminum.

 

[Kawa]

I would use thin sandpaper (3M / Mirka is good quality) on a hard back. You want a flat surface for this.

Pads have a soft backing, so when used with pressure (even minimal) you are rounding of the shoulder of your cutting edge and the shoulder of the flat part where the kanji is (dont know that name). I bet you even reach as far as your apex. For balls you want something you can squeeze a bit into the shape of the ball when you put your hand on it, so a flexible pad is handy. I thick layer of foam helps evening out the pressure, since you press with your fingertips more then other parts. Abralon is widely used for that reason, but I have the same good experiences with good quality wet-sandpaper. Just don't tell that to the proshops (bowling gear shops), because you are a heretic

If you want to try something fancy, abranet might work. It doesn't release gritt, and can be attached to a solid backing. I do not know how they work on steel though. I think it works (why not), slow at worst. See it as an experiment if you'd like.

 

[Kawa]

Do you dress up in a polyester uniform with a name tag when you do that? (Sorry)

Here’s what a ginsan with stainless cladding looks like after 2-3 sharpening with a shapton glass 8k. It’s shiny but scuffed, but I think it’ll eventually get there. I’m making dinner (kari!) so please excuse the best knife type also being in the picture. If you click/touch the attachment it is way less blurry.

It's done wet, so no dust is released. Only colourfull mud splashes all over the place.

 

[Dan-]

You guys try the the mirka/festool sponges?

 

[Kawa]

If you mean the white, rectangle, relativly thin Mirka pads, yes I have. They are a bit stiffer than abralon, so you press harder to squeeze into a ball shape. At the end they also work. Wouldn't try it on knives though. I try whatever I think that works, for the fun of it. Aslong as its beeing sold in the 1000-5000 (or higher) range. Below that, everything more expensive then sandpaper is a waste.
I even tried rainX as a liquid polisher. Yeah...that ball did skid

If you mean those smaller, sandingblocks with sandpaper on all 4 sides. No. Those wont work for me. Too hard. Handy for cornerwork.

 

[Lightfall]

Good point about the flat backing glad I did not inadvertently make that mistake. Anyone tried a specific sandpaper that worked well for this? or even a synthetic stone that can reliably produce kasumi results?