Stones recommendations for high HRC, and vanadium carbide steels.

[KingShapton]

Please don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the exchange with experienced members here!

But it is about the exchange of personal experience from practice and not about any unrelated test results that are not easily reproducible.

 

[inferno]

Idk about specifically diamonds, but cedric and ada gear and outdoors on YouTube tested how different angles and finishes effect different steels edge retention.

i have seen many of his vids. it would be very nice if he made a test like this. i dont remember if he has done any similar test, i dont think he has.

 

[inferno]

There are countless studies on this. From users in forums in different countries, from scientific research and so on.

The problem is always the same, you cannot perform a standardized test and compare the results objectively. There are so many influences that the test results will always be subjective.

To name a few influences that influence the result ... The surface when cutting, the cut material used (there are no standardized vegetables, 2 tomatoes behave differently), the knife used (outdoor or kitchen knife), the thickness of the blade , the steel used, which grind, how much force was exerted when cutting, which cutting technique was used, how accurately the knife was sharpened, was a guided system used (with or without pressure relief) or freehand sharpened, how clean was the deburring and so on. ..

The results will vary on each, which does well on paper cutting tests will fail on raw and fatty meat, or on a whole celery ...

I have read a lot of such tests and also followed a lot of discussions in various forums and have come to the conclusion that the results vary too much to deal with the tests of others or with the related discussions.

As with so many things in life, everyone has to make their own experiences and find out what works for themselves. Everything else is a waste of time from a certain level! I prefer to try things out myself than to have endless theoretical discussions. At some point it is more about someone who wants to be right in the discussion and no longer about the actual topic.

i would be happy with a simple rope or cardboard test, until it wont cut paper any longer. but many substitutes would do.
same knife just finished on diamond once, and regular stones once. its not a hard test to do.
also there are very many "supersteel" folders on the market that people already own.

 

[KingShapton]

i would be happy with a simple rope or cardboard test, until it wont cut paper any longer. but many substitutes would do.
same knife just finished on diamond once, and regular stones once. its not a hard test to do.
also there are very many "supersteel" folders on the market that people already own.

If you keep the test as simple as you suggested, then many influences fall away, that's true.

But the point remains, cutting the rope or cutting paper doesn't say so much about edge retention in the kitchen on different foods, just like the other way around.

With rope cutting tests you test the edge retention when cutting a rope, no more and no less.

If that's enough to get an impression, then this is a simple and, above all, practical test.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

If you keep the test as simple as you suggested, then many influences fall away, that's true.

But the point remains, cutting the rope or cutting paper doesn't say so much about edge retention in the kitchen on different foods, just like the other way around.

With rope cutting tests you test the edge retention when cutting a rope, no more and no less.

If that's enough to get an impression, then this is a simple and, above all, practical test.

This is why opinions on individual stones, grits, etc. for the same steels vary so widely among people. Different expectations, experiences and variables.

Funny enough, Michael Christy just put up a brand new video and in it he discusses how he is shifting from striving for quantitative results in favor of qualitative results. Basically he was saying that he's more interested in his own real-world usage results than side-by-side comparisons. If anyone is not familiar with his videos, I strongly suggest them. His focus is pocket knives and he's quite an unorthodox sharpener but his results are outstanding.

Any time @Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear) is having in depth sharpening and edge discussions with someone, it's a huge endorsement in my book.

I don't know if Todd has anything on Science of Sharp but I wouldn't be surprised if he has some images of different media on different steels.

 

[inferno]

If you keep the test as simple as you suggested, then many influences fall away, that's true.

But the point remains, cutting the rope or cutting paper doesn't say so much about edge retention in the kitchen on different foods, just like the other way around.

With rope cutting tests you test the edge retention when cutting a rope, no more and no less.

If that's enough to get an impression, then this is a simple and, above all, practical test.

it would give you an indication if a is better than b on media c.
cardboard and rope is cheap and quite consistent.
i have an almost unlimited supply of cardboard at work. that we simply throw away.

i think testing like this is very interesting. i mean if i got a really high alloyed (and expensive) knife for the sole reason that it will keep its sharpness for a very long time. it would be in my interest to make sure it kept its sharpness for the absolute longest time. and i would use the best tools accessible to me to get there.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

it would give you an indication if a is better than b on media c.
cardboard and rope is cheap and quite consistent.
i have an almost unlimited supply of cardboard at work. that we simply throw away.

i think testing like this is very interesting. i mean if i got a really high alloyed (and expensive) knife for the sole reason that it will keep its sharpness for a very long time. it would be in my interest to make sure it kept its sharpness for the absolute longest time. and i would use the best tools accessible to me to get there.

I surely don't want to speak for @KingShapton but I believe his point is, that any such test, even with the variables as eliminated or controlled as possible, will still only tell you the edge performance on the cutting medium. Even CATRA only tells us so much due to the cut style and medium used.

It is through usage across a broad spectrum of items and varying tasks that will give each individual user the real knowledge for their uses.

 

[Barmoley]

I surely don't want to speak for @KingShapton but I believe his point is, that any such test, even with the variables as eliminated or controlled as possible, will still only tell you the edge performance on the cutting medium. Even CATRA only tells us so much due to the cut style and medium used.

It is through usage across a broad spectrum of items and varying tasks that will give each individual user the real knowledge for their uses.

This is undeniably true, but just because tests are difficult to design and don't mirror "real world" exactly, doesn't mean they are not useful or valuable. Can you imagine if they didn't use testing or modeling when designing and building airplanes? You can't exactly test how an airplane behaves in the "real world" either until it is finished and is being used. We can't all use every single knife in every steel for our selves. Well designed tests absolutely give us a good idea of how different steels or geometries or whatever will work in use. Sure media is different and sharpening is different and the rest, but there is very good correlation between catra, rope cutting, cardboard. Thus there must be good correlation between these tests and other uses as long as you understand the mechanism of failure in your particular case and what affects it.

After all same reasoning can be extended from one person using a knife and a different person using the same knife. What is the point of sharing experiences at all if we are so different and our uses are so different. Why are we even discussing stuff, we sharpen differently cutting technique is different, material is different, etc. At least in standardised tests most variables can be controlled.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

This is undeniably true, but just because tests are difficult to design and don't mirror "real world" exactly, doesn't mean they are not useful or valuable. Can you imagine if they didn't use testing or modeling when designing and building airplanes? You can't exactly test how an airplane behaves in the "real world" either until it is finished and is being used. We can't all use every single knife in every steel for our selves. Well designed tests absolutely give us a good idea of how different steels or geometries or whatever will work in use. Sure media is different and sharpening is different and the rest, but there is very good correlation between catra, rope cutting, cardboard. Thus there must be good correlation between these tests and other uses as long as you understand the mechanism of failure in your particular case and what affects it.

After all same reasoning can be extended from one person using a knife and a different person using the same knife. What is the point of sharing experiences at all if we are so different and our uses are so different. Why are we even discussing stuff, we sharpen differently cutting technique is different, material is different, etc. At least in standardised tests most variables can be controlled.

Surely not arguing against standardized testing. My only point was that the results should be bracketed and taken in perspective. Clearly, even with the mass amount of edge retention testing out there, people still continue to discuss and debate the topic and the tests themselves so universal consensus has yet to be achieved. Maybe for no other reasons than we just like to discuss and debate the topic.

 

[inferno]

I surely don't want to speak for @KingShapton but I believe his point is, that any such test, even with the variables as eliminated or controlled as possible, will still only tell you the edge performance on the cutting medium. Even CATRA only tells us so much due to the cut style and medium used.

It is through usage across a broad spectrum of items and varying tasks that will give each individual user the real knowledge for their uses.

yes of course you only get results for 1 single test media. but 1 known result is better than 0.
the thing with the broad spectrum/task use for each individual is that no one can keep track of anything. and in the end it just what people "feel" or think/believe.

its the same with audio. there are many people that claim to hear the difference between this or that dac/cable/cd-player/turntable/whatever. and for them its a "night and day difference obviously audible to anyone", and then when this is tested in a controlled test no one can hear any difference at all. how can this be?? it could be that the "audio memory" is so short so its simply impossible to tell any difference if the difference is small enough. i dont know.

people almost always overestimate their abilities to do pretty much everything. its just how it works. this is why tests are good.
there is a saying. 1 measurement is worth 1000 audiophiles opinions.

with that being said. if 1000 people thinks 1 thing and not the other they are probably on to something.

 

[Barmoley]

Surely not arguing against standardized testing. My only point was that the results should be bracketed and taken in perspective. Clearly, even with the mass amount of edge retention testing out there, people still continue to discuss and debate the topic and the tests themselves so universal consensus has yet to be achieved. Maybe for no other reasons than we just like to discuss and debate the topic.

Definitely, but the debates are mostly due to people not understanding what the tests are telling them or purely because they refuse to believe the results for their favorite steel, stone, geometry, etc. Those two reasons can explain most of the debates on the subject.

 

[M1k3]

This is why opinions on individual stones, grits, etc. for the same steels vary so widely among people. Different expectations, experiences and variables.

Funny enough, Michael Christy just put up a brand new video and in it he discusses how he is shifting from striving for quantitative results in favor of qualitative results. Basically he was saying that he's more interested in his own real-world usage results than side-by-side comparisons. If anyone is not familiar with his videos, I strongly suggest them. His focus is pocket knives and he's quite an unorthodox sharpener but his results are outstanding.

Any time @Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear) is having in depth sharpening and edge discussions with someone, it's a huge endorsement in my book.

I don't know if Todd has anything on Science of Sharp but I wouldn't be surprised if he has some images of different media on different steels.

Science of Sharp did do some tests on maxamet. In a nutshell, natural and Shapton Glass 8k abraded the surrounding matrix while leaving carbides exposed. The article was also about carbide fallout. Results inconclusive.

 

[Blank Blades.]

This is why opinions on individual stones, grits, etc. for the same steels vary so widely among people. Different expectations, experiences and variables.

Funny enough, Michael Christy just put up a brand new video and in it he discusses how he is shifting from striving for quantitative results in favor of qualitative results. Basically he was saying that he's more interested in his own real-world usage results than side-by-side comparisons. If anyone is not familiar with his videos, I strongly suggest them. His focus is pocket knives and he's quite an unorthodox sharpener but his results are outstanding.

Any time @Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear) is having in depth sharpening and edge discussions with someone, it's a huge endorsement in my book.

I don't know if Todd has anything on Science of Sharp but I wouldn't be surprised if he has some images of different media on different steels.

I didn't know big brown bear was a member here. I watch his videos all the time.

 

[M1k3]

I didn't know big brown bear was a member here. I watch his videos all the time.

Me either.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

He is indeed. Under the moniker DeadboxHero, Shawn has provided me and many others a ton of advice and insight over the years on different forums. I was excited when I seen he was here as well.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Definitely, but the debates are mostly due to people not understanding what the tests are telling them or purely because they refuse to believe the results for their favorite steel, stone, geometry, etc. Those two reasons can explain most of the debates on the subject.

Again, if someone wants to do the tests, I'm all for it. Look forward to the results!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Shawn and Larrin did the most comprehensive edge retention testing I've personally ever seen. Great work! Truly ground breaking stuff. But it still only informs me so much. It tells me that if I use an Edge Pro with the same stones and skills as Shawn and have a knife made out of a given steel at the same hardness and geometry as what Shawn produced, then when cutting impregnated cardboard, I can expect a given result.

It is a baseline, a representation, it is data for me to consider and of which I genuinely appreciate, but for me, my skills, my uses, the knife I'm choosing etc., it is highly likely I won't realize those same results.

That's all I was getting at. Not that testing is bad in any way, it surely is not. But, folks just need to be aware that it only informs us to certain degrees and all things must be considered when applying the information to personal usage.

 

[inferno]

Shawn and Larrin did the most comprehensive edge retention testing I've personally ever seen. Great work! Truly ground breaking stuff. But it still only informs me so much. It tells me that if I use an Edge Pro with the same stones and skills as Shawn and have a knife made out of a given steel at the same hardness and geometry as what Shawn produced, then when cutting impregnated cardboard, I can expect a given result.

It is a baseline, a representation, it is data for me to consider and of which I genuinely appreciate, but for me, my skills, my uses, the knife I'm choosing etc., it is highly likely I won't realize those same results.

That's all I was getting at. Not that testing is bad in any way, it surely is not. But, folks just need to be aware that it only informs us to certain degrees and all things must be considered when applying the information to personal usage.

i think most of these test can give you a pretty good idea about what to expect when talking how much you can cut with a certain steel until its dull.
sure the HT will be different than off the shelf knives. geometry different etc.

but you can't really test off the shelf knives either because the geometry is different, thickness different, HT can vary from batch to batch etc etc etc. so you're basically testing apples vs oranges then.

all tests are just 1 data point. thats it. and everyone needs to judge how important it is for them.

personally i'm fairly happy with some of the lower end steels (low toughness/edge retention) like aus8, vg10, blue2. for me they are good enough. when they go dull i just resharpen them. i don't really care if they last shorter than my r2 blades. because they were cheap. and i have stones.

 

[inferno]

Again, if someone wants to do the tests, I'm all for it. Look forward to the results!

i would like to do some tests. but i dont have any real high carbide kitchen knife. nor any diamonds above maybe 5-600 grit (only plates).
testing is fun.

the last test i did was with cardboard. i was supposed to cut cardboard until my knives didn't cut copy paper cleanly anymore. all had 4k edges iirc.
i decided try do my kurosaki r2 santoku first. i ended up cutting cardboard for 2h straight, and the knife still cut copy paper like new. and then the handle cracked in 2 and that was my baseline knife.

in the end the knife cuts so much cardboard without dulling its almost completely irrelevant to home kitchen use. thats a result too i guess.

 

[Blank Blades.]

personally i'm fairly happy with some of the lower end steels (low toughness/edge retention) like aus8, vg10, blue2. for me they are5 good enough. when they go dull i just resharpen them. i don't reallreally like this because but if they last shorter than my r2 blades. because they were cheap. and i have stones.

Same. If anything I want steel that has the ability to get extremely sharp more than edge retention. Like white #2. I enjoy the act of sharpening so, if my super thin tojiro santoku goes dull after one day cooking I'm not actually upset if it goes dull quickly.

 

[kayman67]

I disagree with the lack of need for theory, science, numbers, no matter how far they go. But I guess that's just me. True, sometimes is more of a principle, but it's one thing to consider it as such and another to completely disregard it.

Even with this huge variety and number of experiences, there is enough common ground amongst them and all are a great opportunity to access ideas and scenarios that otherwise would be inaccessible. Many times I found new things that I could work with or not, but still things maybe I would have never considered myself.

Michael Christy has a very solid knowledge based on his first hand observations while using the knives. I imagine he got tired of all the debates and comparisons. I guess we all do eventually.

 

[Dominick Maone]

You all are some picky folks if you do not appreciate Knifesteelnerds Catra study. Larrin mentions that some steels would have performed better with different media. But surely anyone can glean some insight from this amazing test. For instance- if you would like a knife that cuts carpet forever. What will you do since no one has ever tested the cutting performance on carpet? But if someone has, what if they cut 20 oz carpet and you are cutting 28 oz carpet. Just disregard those results? Well, you can probably look at Larrin's study and say, surely Rex 121 will cut carpet longer than AEBL. It would be foolish to say, THERE'S JUST NO WAY TO TELL SINCE HIS TEST WAS ON CATRA MEDIA. One major factor in science is that you have to eliminate variables. Maybe Larrin will use the CATRA machine with tomatoes next time and everyone here will be happier, unless they usually cut carrots.

Back on topic, I have seen DMD diamond stones recommended before. I am working on the courage to buy them now, just need to explain it to the girlfriend. They are about 45 US on aliexpress. I am not sure about the link posting rules, but here it is for now.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1000008352648.html

 

[inferno]

You all are some picky folks if you do not appreciate Knifesteelnerds Catra study. Larrin mentions that some steels would have performed better with different media. But surely anyone can glean some insight from this amazing test. For instance- if you would like a knife that cuts carpet forever. What will you do since no one has ever tested the cutting performance on carpet? But if someone has, what if they cut 20 oz carpet and you are cutting 28 oz carpet. Just disregard those results? Well, you can probably look at Larrin's study and say, surely Rex 121 will cut carpet longer than AEBL. It would be foolish to say, THERE'S JUST NO WAY TO TELL SINCE HIS TEST WAS ON CATRA MEDIA. One major factor in science is that you have to eliminate variables. Maybe Larrin will use the CATRA machine with tomatoes next time and everyone here will be happier, unless they usually cut carrots.

Back on topic, I have seen DMD diamond stones recommended before. I am working on the courage to buy them now, just need to explain it to the girlfriend. They are about 45 US on aliexpress. I am not sure about the link posting rules, but here it is for now.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1000008352648.html

i think everyone appreciates the catra test. its an accelerated wear study. i know first hand why one would use the silica impregnated card stock. its because if you would be cutting cardboard or rope with any type of high performance powdersteel with a typical kitchen knife blade; you might be cutting to the "end of eternity" until you dulled the edge enough. and cutting actual food would take even longer time.

its simply not realistic to test knives on food because it takes way too long time to get any useable results except with maybe simple carbon steels. there is also too many variables with food to make the test scientific.

cedric and ada outdoors does an interesting rope cutting test that gets results quite similar to larrins test. but he tests with off the shelf knives.

however i think most people here will resharpen a long time before knives can't cut paper anymore. because then the knives are very dull.
i resharpen as soon as i deem the edge not "very sharp" anymore.

its kinda hard to judge where this point is, and to somehow quantify that with some easy test is even harder. there is the bess tester of course.

 

[M-S-T]

That is one of those topics, where is no absolute truth. I don't think you need diamonds for everything. I think if we are talking tipical production kitchen cutlery- modern waterstones are more than capable to complete the task. They are even capable to handle production stuff up to s90v. BUT everything changes dramatically with custom HT and the closer you are to the 10v class the more you'll hate your waterstones. That's just the reality of things. But you need to experience it yourself to truly understand it.

 

[Blank Blades.]

That is one of those topics, where is no absolute truth. I don't think you need diamonds for everything. I think if we are talking tipical production kitchen cutlery- modern waterstones are more than capable to complete the task. They are even capable to handle production stuff up to s90v. BUT everything changes dramatically with custom HT and the closer you are to the 10v class the more you'll hate your waterstones. That's just the reality of things. But you need to experience it yourself to truly understand it.

We aren't talking about typical kitchen cutlery. I get super steel knives to sharpen on a semi regular basis. One day I had to sharpen 3 10v knives in a row, on my waterstones. With the customers standing there watching me do it. I was just there on my chosera with the knife sliding across it like it was glass.

Anyway, the venev Phoenix 240/400 should be shipping today (hopefully). So I will likely have it by next weekend if everything goes well.

 

[Jovidah]

If you're offering sharpening services I guess you might see more of those super steels. Customers probably struggled to sharpen them themselves and figured they'd offload their problem to a professional.

 

[Blank Blades.]

If you're offering sharpening services I guess you might see more of those super steels. Customers probably struggled to sharpen them themselves and figured they'd offload their problem to a professional.

That, and I see a lot of knives that look like they have never been sharpened, or they look like someone tried to sharpen it by running the edge on a sidewalk.

 

[M-S-T]

We aren't talking about typical kitchen cutlery. I get super steel knives to sharpen on a semi regular basis. One day I had to sharpen 3 10v knives in a row, on my waterstones. With the customers standing there watching me do it. I was just there on my chosera with the knife sliding across it like it was glass.

Anyway, the venev Phoenix 240/400 should be shipping today (hopefully). So I will likely have it by next weekend if everything goes well.

So you have experienced the pain first-hand. If you are sharpening for money superabrasives is a must to have. Time management is essential to make decent profits.

 

[Barmoley]

We aren't talking about typical kitchen cutlery. I get super steel knives to sharpen on a semi regular basis. One day I had to sharpen 3 10v knives in a row, on my waterstones. With the customers standing there watching me do it. I was just there on my chosera with the knife sliding across it like it was glass.

Anyway, the venev Phoenix 240/400 should be shipping today (hopefully). So I will likely have it by next weekend if everything goes well.

This is why some pages back I said that you shouldn't skimp on the stones and just get diamonds, which is what you got so hopefully it will work better. Once you said it is your side gig and 10V class is in play, there is no question you need quality diamond or CBN especially at finer grit. It is one thing when someone sharpens one folder in 10V once a year, but for you the time wasted and frustration can't possibly be worth the savings on the stones.

 

[Ruso]

Even S30V can be challenging on regular water stones; and its a basic "super steel" that does not excite anyone.