Suggestions for a sturdy guyto??

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LuisMendes

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Hello there guys !! I'm looking for a guyto to use in barbecues and weekend outside cooking, therefore a more relaxed environment and so I'm looking for a knife that does not need much care.
I'll be usually cutting meat: Pork, Lamb, Sausages, Lamb, Fish. Except for the fish everything is bought from the butcher in pieces (no bones); no killing, boning, removing viscera, etc.. easy work :hungry:
I'll also cut for sauce : Tomatoes, onions, cucumber, and other veggies.

I have in mind two knives:

Masakage koishi gyuto

Itinomonn stainless kasumi

Notes:
- I put links of 210mm knives because there's a big price leap from 210 to 240mm, don't know why it's like that, but I would prefer the 240mm version.
- I'm open to other knife brands or models, but the shop must EU based (too much taxes when buying from the US).

Thank you !!!
 
There is a "Which Knife" questionnaire at the top of this sub-forum. Pls fill it out to describe what you want in a knife, where you are located, how much you are willing to spend etc. That will allow tailored recommendations (usually) based on your requirements.
 
Masakage prices are very high in the EU.

I have both Koishi and Itinomonn. They are very different. Koishi is much thinner, has matte kurouchi, and is stainless clad and blue super core.

Itinomonn is semi-stainless or kurouchi iron depending on model. Thick knife and very sturdy. Good core steel. My choice between the two.

I don't think the Koishi is worth the price within EU. I got mine on a trip to north america, while there was a 15% discount on Masakage in knifewear with a good exchange rate for the CAD. Good knife, but within the EU, I would go for Itinomonn.
 
They both look like nice knives, but I'm a bit confused by your thread title. At ~150 grams and the wa-handle construction, at least in my book I'm not sure I'd think of either of them as "sturdy".
 
LOCATION
Portugal


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Gyuto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 210 to 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) Yes (Carbon core is ok)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 200€



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Mostly meat: Pork, Lamb, Sausages, Lamb, Fish. Some veggies: Tomatoes, onions, cucumber.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? A portuguese chef knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Push/Pull, Rock, chop.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) Changing from Western style to japanese. I'm looking for a knife with better quality, but with low maintenance.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? better stain resistance

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? lighter (compared to a western chef knife)

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? Good out of the box sharpening and rock chopping

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? If the edge keeps for at least 2 - 3 months in home use, it's ok



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Yes, wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes (but I'm not very skilled yet)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) No



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
In the first post.
 
DamageInc, Timthebeaver: Thanks!

Richard: Maybe I did not express well, english is not my native language, not sure if "sturdy" was the best word. I want to go lighter (changing from western knife to japanese), but I don't want to go too light (don't want a laser). I want a knife to cut mostly meat, but I don't need to separate bones or other hard stuff...

I think the Itinomonn is the better alternative, since the masakage is thinner... but maybe there are other alternatives that I'm not aware of

more clear? :(
 
Ah okay makes sense, you are looking for something not too fragile or difficult to take care of. When I think of sturdy (Japanese-made) gyuto, I think of my Mac Ultimate knife, which is very different in weight and construction than the knives you are thinking about.
 
Exactly!! Maybe I'm biased towards the wa-handle and a more japanese look because it's completely different of what I'm used to, and that attracts me... But the fact is that I'm new in the world of Japanese knives and might be going in the wrong way... Anyway, I'm not sure if I can find Mac knives here, maybe the Misonos are easier to find, I think I saw them on an UK site. But if the Itinomonn can be used in the situation I explained before, I'll go for it .
 
Itinomonn seems a good choice, Wakui and Yoshikane should be great alternatives in your budget.

If you change your mind about the handle check the Takamura R2 - all stainless and brilliant cutter, may be a bit thin for you.
 
Based on what you've described, I wouldn't suggest the Mac Ultimate as it's a bit heavier for a Japanese knife — it feels almost like a European knife (that cuts better). The Mac Pro is light and nimble, and a favorite suggestion Western-handled knife in some pro circles, but it's not going to keep it's edge as long as harder steels (though it sharpens really easily). Personally I think Macs in general are a bit overpriced...the Mac Ultimate I have is almost 300 USD or Euros! (but I was fortunate to buy it many years ago when they were more affordable, and also at a used-priced).

Misonos are great knives...if you are interested in them I would recommend to go for the 440 or UX10 series if you can find a good price. Even better is if you can visit a shop nearby you that carries them so you can view them in person. Masahiro MV or Masamoto VG are also good choices that are similar to the Misono.

I can't comment too much on the Itinomonn as I personally prefer mostly Western-handled knives instead of traditional Japanese handles, but from what I've seen it looks like a solid choice for what you want. However if you are new to the world of Japanese knives, I would not recommend the Masage for you because the high hardness of the Blue Super steel makes it not a very suitable choice for a first time user...especially when combined with DamageInc's comment that they are priced more expensively in the EU too means there are probably better and wiser choices to spend your money. Perhaps others can give additional suggestions for wa-gyutos in your price range and can be easily ordered in Europe.
 
Based on what you have written so far, I would say the Itinomonn in semi-stainless is a great choice. That would be my choice for you budget.
 
If you can stretch the budget a bit, both the Itinomonn gyuto and butcher knife would probably be the last two knives you ever need.
 
The wa butcher knife is super cool. I just made a saya for a coworker of mine and really had to look at the shape of it. It is really thick until right behind the edge, then it gets thin. The same is true distally. It's ground like an outdoor or skinning knife but less convex.

It looks really useful for about every butcher's task except silver skin. If I ever get a job where I'm butchering things other than fish regularly Ill pick one up.

I do most of my home cooking with an Itinomonn 210mm gyuto. I think it is a hell of s bargain.
 
The Gesshin Kagero is tough blade with excellent steel and retention. Akifusa at JCK is same knife.
 
Dardeau said:
The wa butcher knife is super cool.
Click to expand...

Yeah after looking it over this morning I thought "I really need a good butcher knife to round out my tools" and bought one :lol2: BTW I really DON"T need a butcher knife, but maybe at some point I'll do turkey or whole chicken and I'll be ready!
 
Maybe I was unlucky, but I had a really bad experience with the Koishis. I recieved two different knives. Both were bend and poor cutters. I recommend the Itonomonn [emoji2]
- Kim
 
KimBronnum said:
Maybe I was unlucky, but I had a really bad experience with the Koishis. I recieved two different knives. Both were bend and poor cutters. I recommend the Itonomonn [emoji2]
- Kim
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear that. I have a 240mm Gyuto and 150mm Honesuki both Koishi series. Both blades are straight and cut well. Something must have gone wrong under shipment if they were bent or you were just very unlucky. Or maybe it's the other way around and I am the lucky one...

Whatever's the case, I think the Itinomonn would be the best choice.
 
DamageInc said:
I'm sorry to hear that. I have a 240mm Gyuto and 150mm Honesuki both Koishi series. Both blades are straight and cut well. Something must have gone wrong under shipment if they were bent or you were just very unlucky. Or maybe it's the other way around and I am the lucky one...

Whatever's the case, I think the Itinomonn would be the best choice.
Click to expand...

My Koishi honesuki was perfect but I did not really gel with it. I'd take the Kurosaki AS over it.
 
I actually bought the honesuki aswell - and I bought that one first and was very happy with it. I was also really surprised to recieve two bad apples ie the gyuto(s). I did, however, get great service from cuttingedgeknives in the UK. They gave me a full refund and was really surprised themselves. The bad experience made me dislike the gyoto and hence didn´t want another replacement knife. Somewhere on the forums - and youtube (I think) - there is a video where we tested the knife alongside an Itonomonn and a Devin Thomas gyuto. We split some dence cabbage with an interesting result.
- Kim
 
KimBronnum said:
I actually bought the honesuki aswell - and I bought that one first and was very happy with it. I was also really surprised to recieve two bad apples ie the gyuto(s). I did, however, get great service from cuttingedgeknives in the UK. They gave me a full refund and was really surprised themselves. The bad experience made me dislike the gyoto and hence didn´t want another replacement knife. Somewhere on the forums - and youtube (I think) - there is a video where we tested the knife alongside an Itonomonn and a Devin Thomas gyuto. We split some dence cabbage with an interesting result.
- Kim
Click to expand...

Yeah I saw that video. On Greg's channel right?

Tried that a few days later with my Koishi and had no trouble. You must have gotten a lemon. Anyway, good on cuttingedgeknives for the refund. What was the problem with the honesuki? Mine's fine. Probably split 30 chickens with it since I got it.
 
I will also recommend the Itinomonn which seems to be just right for you.

However, I also have the Koishi, and though I think DamageInc is right when he says that it is too expensive in Europe it is by no means a bad knife. Mine (a 240 gyouto) was straight and is a great cutter – it came from cuttingedgeknives.co.uk with no problems whatsoever. Almost no matter what knife and what vendor, you may have some problems, but in my experience Masakage knives are generally okay... Still, I would go for the Itinomonn
 
KimBronnum said:
The bad experience made me dislike the gyoto and hence didn´t want another replacement knife. Somewhere on the forums - and youtube (I think) - there is a video where we tested the knife alongside an Itonomonn and a Devin Thomas gyuto. We split some dence cabbage with an interesting result.
- Kim
Click to expand...

Always up for a video--link?
 
I believe it's

[video=youtube;2M8wPdX2240]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M8wPdX2240[/video]
 
Hello !!! Guys, you are amazing!! I'll order the Itinomonn, later this week, when I receive my payment.

MrOil, Thanks! I don't know where to find those knives, got links for that?

augerpro: Don't know if I would need the butcher knife, I buy meat from a good butcher (not cheap though), and he cuts the way I ask him to. Most of the time I'll cut the meat to serve, except for the fish, but I can do it with the guyto. Anyway, I'll think about it, maybe for another time, better not stretch the budget. About the last two knives I'll ever need, I tell this to myself since my first chef knife... lol

keithsaltydog: Do you have links for those knives?

KimBronnum: I never had a koishi, but I have 2 masakages and they are great knives, I know each line is made by a different blacksmith, but I think you were unlucky.

idemhj: Thanks!! I'll get the Itinomonn !!

Timthebeaver: Great video !!! thanks !!
 
LuisMendes said:
Hello !!! Guys, you are amazing!! I'll order the Itinomonn, later this week, when I receive my payment.

MrOil, Thanks! I don't know where to find those knives, got links for that?

augerpro: Don't know if I would need the butcher knife, I buy meat from a good butcher (not cheap though), and he cuts the way I ask him to. Most of the time I'll cut the meat to serve, except for the fish, but I can do it with the guyto. Anyway, I'll think about it, maybe for another time, better not stretch the budget. About the last two knives I'll ever need, I tell this to myself since my first chef knife... lol

keithsaltydog: Do you have links for those knives?

KimBronnum: I never had a koishi, but I have 2 masakages and they are great knives, I know each line is made by a different blacksmith, but I think you were unlucky.

idemhj: Thanks!! I'll get the Itinomonn !!

Timthebeaver: Great video !!! thanks !!
Click to expand...

You won't be disappointed. I've tried every brand of knife from japanesenaturalstones except for Shigefusa, and I've have never been let down. Hope you enjoy it! Be careful, it's a slippery road....
 
Coming from a Market Manager that actually cuts meat for a living, don't get the butcher. Knife is way too thick and meat gets stuck behind the heel.

Just get a 10 inch cimeter and you'll be fine. I recommend a Jero. Stay away from Victorinox.
 
I'm going to go back and read this thread after, but the best sturdy gyuto I've used was one by Will Catcheside. It was an awesome knife.... I'd also look at Shig, and Butch (sturdy by later performance).
 
Done. Just ordered from JNS website. At the last minute I did not hold my carbon steel addiction and ordered the Itinommon Kasumi. V2 core with stainless cladding. I checked kkf and it seems to be less reactive than White#2 and with the cladding, should be easier to take care of. Hope I did a good purchase.
 
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