Touch-up stone and finishing stone

[CableReady]

Hi, I have recently been learning to sharpen on a Shapton Pro 1000, and as I'm getting better I'm looking to add a stone or two. My knives are mostly soft steel, with the exception of an Aogami Super Nakiri (my first Japanese knife). My knives are:

Victorinox Swiss Modern 8" chef's knife
Victorinox Swiss Modern paring knife
Kiwi #22 (basically a large Nakiri—I got it as a cheap way to test out the profile)
Shiro Kamo Aogami Super Tall Nakiri

These are all fairly new. The Nakiri is a sort of "test run" at carbon steel. At some point down the line after I've determined whether I mind the extra maintenance for carbon steel, I will add a 240mm Gyuto in either carbon or a harder stainless steel.

I've been learning to sharpen on the Kiwi and the Victorinox. Though I still struggle somewhat with the tip of the chef's knife, I finally felt comfortable enough yesterday to try sharpening the Shiro Kamo Nakiri and I had pretty good success! In many ways it was easier to sharpen than the others. The biggest difficulty was getting the curve at the tip as sharp as it was out of the box (I did not succeed at this). I suppose that'll come with more practice.

Anyway, I am interested in adding a few stones to my SP1000, in the following order:

1. a "touch-up" stone that (hopefully) can be used weekly on all my knives, and for finishing on my soft steel knives,
   • Shapton Pro 2000? I've read excellent things about this stone. But would it be too coarse of a touch-up stone for my Nakiri (and future Gyuto), and too close to what I already have?
   • Shapton Glass or Rockstar 3000? Perhaps this could double as a finishing stone. But would this be too fine for touch-up on my soft steel knives?
2. a finishing stone for my Nakiri (and whatever Gyuto I end up getting),
   • Shapton Glass or Rockstar 3000? Perhaps this could double as the touch-up stone. But would this be too coarse for an ideal finish on my hard knives?
   • Shapton Glass or Rockstar 4000, or 6000?
3. a coarse stone for when it comes time to do thinning, down the line.
   • 220 or 320? Shapton Pro, Glass, or Rockstar?

I have an Atoma #140 for when the time comes for flattening. I have a slight preference for Shapton stones since I've been please with my SP1000 and apart from thickness all their stones are the same size.

For now, as I continue to develop my sharpening skills, I was thinking I'd prioritize a touch up and/or finishing stone, and only buy a coarse stone when it comes time to do thinning, but I am open to being persuaded otherwise. What would you recommend for me? (If it matters at all for determining the level of polish I might want, all my cooking is vegetarian—no meat or fish, and lots of veggies and tofu.)

 

[aporigine]

Hi, I have recently been learning to sharpen on a Shapton Pro 1000, and as I'm getting better I'm looking to add a stone or two. My knives are mostly soft steel, with the exception of an Aogami Super Nakiri (my first Japanese knife). My knives are:

Victorinox Swiss Modern 8" chef's knife
Victorinox Swiss Modern paring knife
Kiwi #22 (basically a large Nakiri—I got it as a cheap way to test out the profile)
Shiro Kamo Aogami Super Tall Nakiri

These are all fairly new. The Nakiri is a sort of "test run" at carbon steel. At some point down the line after I've determined whether I mind the extra maintenance for carbon steel, I will add a 240mm Gyuto in either carbon or a harder stainless steel.

I've been learning to sharpen on the Kiwi and the Victorinox. Though I still struggle somewhat with the tip of the chef's knife, I finally felt comfortable enough yesterday to try sharpening the Shiro Kamo Nakiri and I had pretty good success! In many ways it was easier to sharpen than the others. The biggest difficulty was getting the curve at the tip as sharp as it was out of the box (I did not succeed at this). I suppose that'll come with more practice.

Anyway, I am interested in adding a few stones to my SP1000, in the following order:

1. a "touch-up" stone that (hopefully) can be used weekly on all my knives, and for finishing on my soft steel knives,
   • Shapton Pro 2000? I've read excellent things about this stone. But would it be too coarse of a touch-up stone for my Nakiri (and future Gyuto), and too close to what I already have?
   • Shapton Glass or Rockstar 3000? Perhaps this could double as a finishing stone. But would this be too fine for touch-up on my soft steel knives?
2. a finishing stone for my Nakiri (and whatever Gyuto I end up getting),
   • Shapton Glass or Rockstar 3000? Perhaps this could double as the touch-up stone. But would this be too coarse for an ideal finish on my hard knives?
   • Shapton Glass or Rockstar 4000, or 6000?
3. a coarse stone for when it comes time to do thinning, down the line.
   • 220 or 320? Shapton Pro, Glass, or Rockstar?

I have an Atoma #140 for when the time comes for flattening. I have a slight preference for Shapton stones since I've been please with my SP1000 and apart from thickness all their stones are the same size.

For now, as I continue to develop my sharpening skills, I was thinking I'd prioritize a touch up and/or finishing stone, and only buy a coarse stone when it comes time to do thinning, but I am open to being persuaded otherwise. What would you recommend for me? (If it matters at all for determining the level of polish I might want, all my cooking is vegetarian—no meat or fish, and lots of veggies and tofu.)

In your shoes I’d reach for a Shapton 320 (I’m keen to try a Rockstar but I’m sure the Pro will do fine) or a Chosera 400.
In my opinion the coarse stone is enough for the Vics. When you get a paper-cutting edge off the coarse stone, you know you’re doing it right.

A finer stone will be a good choice for your nakiri. I own a Chosera 3k (they are now available for half what I paid six years ago) and a Cerax (Suehiro) 5k. They’re both excellent stones. If you’re game, I’d go from your 1k straight to the Cerax. You can explore different levels of tooth vs finesse by taking either very few or many passes on the fine stone. I have a knife for mushrooms that I like to maintain at high grit. The onion etc. knives have a sweet spot off the 3k though I’ll often take them to the 5k just because.

I adore my Cerax. It has lovely feedback and a fast action. It dishes quicker than the town gossip, so I suggest a flattening before or after each use session.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

A Hard Ark or even a Soft/Hard combo will work well as a finisher.

No real point in taking the soft stainless above 1000. An Ark will tidy up the edge on them though.

 

[M1k3]

I have multiple suggestions that fit with your current stone:

Shapton Glass 220: for when stuff is really dull or needs repairs.

Shapton Pro 2k: In use, it's grit isn't that close to the 1k. Best stone in their Pro/Kuromaku line in my opinion. Good finisher for toothy edge and somewhat decent stainless.

Shapton Glass 4k: Good match for the Nakiri and future carbon steels and good stainless.



These others are just other options...

Coticule: Not necessary, but the edge it creates is so good.

Washita/Soft Ark: Nice hard, slow wearing stones. Good finishers for the kitchen.

 

[panda]

if anything I would go with a lower grit for your knives (except the nakiri)
600 grit is great for victorinox

 

[Rangen]

Plenty of solid practical advice above, so let me cover a different angle. As you advance your skills, personal preference will begin to come into play. Some of that will be driven by your sharpening style. So I will lay out where I’ve ended up, to provide a reference point.

For decades, I did all knife sharpening on a Shapton Glass 1000. I found no need for anything else. Thinning seemed unspeakably exotic. If I wanted a more refined edge, I would just spend more time at low pressure. If I needed more aggressive changes, high pressure. The SG 1000 has that characteristic, where light-pressure sharpening produces a finer edge. There are great advantages to getting to know a stone that well.

Now I have a ton of stones, and I like using different stones even for the same needs, because I find it interesting. If I had your stone, and your knives, but all those experiences under my belt, here’s how I’d look at things:

My favorite thing to do with knives these days is to form and debur the apex on a Shapton Glass 500, then jump straight to a natural for some light finishing work, either a Washita, a Soft Ark (good Soft Arks are a bargain for what they deliver), an Aizu, a Belgian Blue, or a coarse coticule (this is by far the hardest thing to find on the list).

A caveat: I don’t think this approach would have worked well for me until I was pretty far along at developing my sharpening skills. Mid-coarse stones like the SG500 are extraordinarily useful to an experienced sharpener, but I think there was a long period in which trying an SG500, or, worse, an SG320, as my base stone would have meant wasted steel and misshapen bevels and poor results. Maybe that’s just me.

The other part, though, the relatively coarseish natural, would be my next stone purchase, were I in your position. Partly because it would be the most fun. Partly because new sharpeners are always drawn to finishing stones, so why not indulge that a bit with a stone that would be genuinely useful for making great, useful kitchen edges?

I echo the Victorinox/Soft Stainless advice above, but will also mention that diamond stones (not plates IMO) make sharpening soft stainless a lot more fun and easy. The ones I like (Naniwa and NSK and FSK) are expensive though.

 

[Legion74]

My favorite thing to do with knives these days is to form and debur the apex on a Shapton Glass 500, then jump straight to a natural for some light finishing work, either a Washita, a Soft Ark (good Soft Arks are a bargain for what they deliver), an Aizu, a Belgian Blue, or a coarse coticule (this is by far the hardest thing to find on the list).

This is one of my favourite combos. SG 500, then a natural like Llyn Idwal, a fine Turkey stone, BBW... but Just about thirty seconds on the natural, not enough to remove all the teeth left by the sg500.

 

[rickbern]

I just posted a thread about using a shapton 500 and a gesshin synthetic natural. Same idea as @Legion74

I liked it a lot. Probably would work just as well with the 1000

 

[CableReady]

Sorry for the late follow-up; it's the beginning of the semester and I'm teaching several courses at the university.

Off the bat, I should have noted that for a touch-up stone (a stone for touching up knives pretty regularly in between full sharpening sessions) I definitely want a splash and go stone. On the whole I'd prefer splash and go generally, but would be willing to try a stone that requires soaking if it wouldn't be used for touch-up, but just in full on sharpening sessions.

A Hard Ark or even a Soft/Hard combo will work well as a finisher.

Washita/Soft Ark: Nice hard, slow wearing stones. Good finishers for the kitchen.

My favorite thing to do with knives these days is to form and debur the apex on a Shapton Glass 500, then jump straight to a natural for some light finishing work, either a Washita, a Soft Ark (good Soft Arks are a bargain for what they deliver), an Aizu, a Belgian Blue, or a coarse coticule (this is by far the hardest thing to find on the list).

I wanted to ask more about Arkansas stones, which a few people recommended for a finishing stone. I know nothing about Arkansas stones, and a reason (albeit an odd one) that I'm interested in pursuing the suggestion of Arkansas stones is that I live in Arkansas. (I'd like to think that because of this, it might be easier for me to get ahold of a decent Arkansas stone, but I suppose the world does not work like that anymore!)

Are there any particular stone recommendations you might offer? Any relevant literature on Arkansas stones you might advise reading? Do they require soaking or some special maintenance?

 

[Rangen]

I wanted to ask more about Arkansas stones, which a few people recommended for a finishing stone. I know nothing about Arkansas stones, and a reason (albeit an odd one) that I'm interested in pursuing the suggestion of Arkansas stones is that I live in Arkansas. (I'd like to think that because of this, it might be easier for me to get ahold of a decent Arkansas stone, but I suppose the world does not work like that anymore!)

Are there any particular stone recommendations you might offer? Any relevant literature on Arkansas stones you might advise reading? Do they require soaking or some special maintenance?

The easy recommendation for Arks is Dan's Whetstone, who supply excellent quality stones from their active mines. The Soft Ark I use for finishing knives is from them, and I am thoroughly happy with it. I have the impression that Soft Arks are highly variable, so if you want one, I'd definitely suggest sticking to Dan's.

Arks are generally used with oil, although a few people use water. No soaking is required. They are not friable, so when they smooth out, you need to recondition the surface; this is generally done with silicon carbide powder (which is very cheap) on a flat-enough surface like a sheet of glass or a granite tile or even a cookie sheet.

A Dan's stone will be ready to go and fully flat. If you buy used, you may face flattening them, which is laborious. That also is done with SC powder in 60-80 grit.

Washitas are also from Arkansas, and also composed of Novaculite and used with oil. They are truly wonderful stones, but not really in production any more (I think Dan's occasionally mines some), so people haunt auction sites for good ones. Pricing tends to be higher than for Soft Arks. There is a long-running Washita thread here that ought to get you up to speed on many aspects of Novaculite stones. It's a great topic to dive into.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Sorry for the late follow-up; it's the beginning of the semester and I'm teaching several courses at the university.

Off the bat, I should have noted that for a touch-up stone (a stone for touching up knives pretty regularly in between full sharpening sessions) I definitely want a splash and go stone. On the whole I'd prefer splash and go generally, but would be willing to try a stone that requires soaking if it wouldn't be used for touch-up, but just in full on sharpening sessions.







I wanted to ask more about Arkansas stones, which a few people recommended for a finishing stone. I know nothing about Arkansas stones, and a reason (albeit an odd one) that I'm interested in pursuing the suggestion of Arkansas stones is that I live in Arkansas. (I'd like to think that because of this, it might be easier for me to get ahold of a decent Arkansas stone, but I suppose the world does not work like that anymore!)

Are there any particular stone recommendations you might offer? Any relevant literature on Arkansas stones you might advise reading? Do they require soaking or some special maintenance?

@Rangen gave you some good advice. Dan's is top quality and always a safe bet. There's also some good reading on the stones on their site.

Arkansas stones are novaculite and silica is the abrasive. They're not really suited for high carbide or more complex steels. On simple steels though, they can do very well.

Unlike Japanese natural stones (J-Nats) and other naturals, Arks don't slurry. They wear slowly but are subject to glazing although with proper maintenance that isn't a huge issue. This also means they don't give a lot of the tactile feedback you'll hear many sharpeners talk about. In a sort of gross exaggeration, sharpening/honing on Arks is sort of like doing it on porous metal. They feel hard. Washitas are in their own sub-category are true Washitas are no longer mined. They tend to be the coarsest and most versatile but the you have to seek out the good ones. Soft Arks are still readily available and are the coarsest of the common Arkansas stones. These can give some feedback but still nothing like J-Nats or Belgium Blue stones. That said, I don't mind that at all.

People will have different opinions but I'm a strong advocate for keeping Arks oiled. I recommend honing oil for the finest stones but you can use laxative mineral oil from the grocery store on them too and it works just fine on Softs. This doesn't mean that you always have to use oil when using the stone. I use water quite often, especially for quick touch-ups but I always make sure my stones are well oiled. I also occasionally scrub them with a toothbrush and some oil to lift out swarf that may start building up.

The oil part of them is a detractor for many people. You don't want to contaminate any water stones with oil so you have to be disciplined about segregation. Also, the oil can be slippery and somewhat messy.

All that said, I love Arkansas stones. I've used them for decades and will continue to do so as long as I can still sharpen. Just another tool in the proverbial box.

 

[M1k3]

Dan's or ask @stringer if he has any he wants to part with.

 

[CableReady]

The easy recommendation for Arks is Dan's Whetstone, who supply excellent quality stones from their active mines. The Soft Ark I use for finishing knives is from them, and I am thoroughly happy with it. I have the impression that Soft Arks are highly variable, so if you want one, I'd definitely suggest sticking to Dan's.

Arks are generally used with oil, although a few people use water. No soaking is required. They are not friable, so when they smooth out, you need to recondition the surface; this is generally done with silicon carbide powder (which is very cheap) on a flat-enough surface like a sheet of glass or a granite tile or even a cookie sheet.

A Dan's stone will be ready to go and fully flat. If you buy used, you may face flattening them, which is laborious. That also is done with SC powder in 60-80 grit.

Washitas are also from Arkansas, and also composed of Novaculite and used with oil. They are truly wonderful stones, but not really in production any more (I think Dan's occasionally mines some), so people haunt auction sites for good ones. Pricing tends to be higher than for Soft Arks. There is a long-running Washita thread here that ought to get you up to speed on many aspects of Novaculite stones. It's a great topic to dive into.

Thanks for the resources. I've just been looking at Dan's stones thanks to your reference and they seem pretty reasonably priced for me. But I noticed that the Soft Arks are "medium" grit stones (400-600 grit, according to Dan's FAQ), whereas I thought (from the JKI videos on sharpening that I've watched) that finishing stones were finer grit stones. Yet the Soft Ark is being recommended here as a finishing stone? What am I missing?

Arkansas stones are novaculite and silica is the abrasive. They're not really suited for high carbide or more complex steels. On simple steels though, they can do very well.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the great variety of steels out there, but I suppose that this means this wouldn't be great for my Nakiri? It's Aogami Super. From what I understand, that is more complex in comparison to Shirogami (or White) steels (though perhaps not in comparison to many other kinds of steels?)

You don't want to contaminate any water stones with oil so you have to be disciplined about segregation.

I fear that this may be a deal-breaker for me, at least at this stage in my sharpening.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thanks for the resources. I've just been looking at Dan's stones thanks to your reference and they seem pretty reasonably priced for me. But I noticed that the Soft Arks are "medium" grit stones (400-600 grit, according to Dan's FAQ), whereas I thought (from the JKI videos on sharpening that I've watched) that finishing stones were finer grit stones. Yet the Soft Ark is being recommended here as a finishing stone? What am I missing?



I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the great variety of steels out there, but I suppose that this means this wouldn't be great for my Nakiri? It's Aogami Super. From what I understand, that is more complex in comparison to Shirogami (or White) steels (though perhaps not in comparison to many other kinds of steels?)



I fear that this may be a deal-breaker for me, at least at this stage in my sharpening.

Don't get too hung up on grits. Important yes but there's also a lot of subtilties. For example, Arks are generally rated by the ANSI grit scale whereas Japanese stones generally use the JIS scale. Further, the stone itself and how you use it can alter the way it interacts with the steel. Then there is also the consideration of what kind of final edge you like for your uses.

Arks will handle AS just fine. While AS is considered a more complex steel in terms of the common paper steels, it is still very simple compared to the broader steel world.

 

[deltaplex]

Thanks for the resources. I've just been looking at Dan's stones thanks to your reference and they seem pretty reasonably priced for me. But I noticed that the Soft Arks are "medium" grit stones (400-600 grit, according to Dan's FAQ), whereas I thought (from the JKI videos on sharpening that I've watched) that finishing stones were finer grit stones. Yet the Soft Ark is being recommended here as a finishing stone? What am I missing?



I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the great variety of steels out there, but I suppose that this means this wouldn't be great for my Nakiri? It's Aogami Super. From what I understand, that is more complex in comparison to Shirogami (or White) steels (though perhaps not in comparison to many other kinds of steels?)



I fear that this may be a deal-breaker for me, at least at this stage in my sharpening.

You can use water on Arkansas Stones as well, it's just that most who try them with both oil and water end up preferring oil, and it is a preference.

As far as using them for in the kitchen touchups, they're very capable of being a one and done stone. If they're either a one and done or the last stone in your progression, then you've got nothing to worry about from an oil or grit contamination standpoint.

As HHC said above, Arks will cut any simple carbon steel with ease, Ao Super included. It's probably not the top choice for the relatively new, high hardness steels, but it works just fine on things like SG2/R2.

 

[pavhav]

I fear that this may be a deal-breaker for me,

Following @stringer 's suggestion I use food glade propylene glycol on my Washitas, Arks, and Cretans. Viscous, but clean enough for a kitchen touch up.
Because they're essentially pure silica they don't work like synthetic waterstones: with a light touch you can get a far more refined edge than the suggested grit ratings.