Toyama vs Watanabe Sujis, 270 vs 300

[matto]

Are Toyama and Watanabe Sujihikis essentially the same blade? I know their gyutos are, but their nakiris are not. I'm seeing old posts saying the sujis were likely the same at one point and I wonder if this is still true?

I really want a 300mm, but JNS only has the 270mm in stock ($528 shipped).

I can get a 300mm from Watanabe but with shipping, upgraded Keyaki wood handle, and international paypal fees, it's around $738. Yikes, that's $210 for an extra inch.

At that price I might wait for the Toyama 300 to come back in stock, or just grab the Toyama.... or go a different direction entirely.

 

[superworrier]

I thought maybe the Wat nakiris were different until I saw the KUs at Zahocho that look nearly the same

 

[matto]

Bump to see if anyone else has thoughts on Toyama vs Watanabe sujihiki differences...

I'm pretty sure I'm saying screw it and getting a Watanabe 300

 

[Barmoley]

I don't know about 300 mm, but 270s are the same knife as far as I could tell. I would be very surprised if 300s were different, but I don't know.

 

[daveb]

I've had a Wat and Toy 270, side by side and did some work with each. Almost same profile and grind. Different handles, different kangi were the way to tell them apart. They weighed within 5g of each other.

I had a slight preference for the Wat (but I've always been a bit of a fanboy)

 

[DpC]

Did you end up pulling the trigger on the Wat @matto? I’m currently facing the exact same dilemma - my expectation is that if/when the 300 Toyama is restocked at JNS the price will be similar to the Wat, so I may as well just go for the Wat now…

 

[matto]

Did you end up pulling the trigger on the Wat @matto? I’m currently facing the exact same dilemma - my expectation is that if/when the 300 Toyama is restocked at JNS the price will be similar to the Wat, so I may as well just go for the Wat now…

Yes sir! I bought the 300mm wat, and I like it more than the others. It's more like 295mm so I'm still scratching my head at how that is worth an extra couple hundred dollars, but hey, you only live once.

 

[DpC]

Yes sir! I bought the 300mm wat, and I like it more than the others. It's more like 295mm so I'm still scratching my head at how that is worth an extra couple hundred dollars, but hey, you only live once.

What are the dimensions and weight on yours? I asked Shinichi and he said “It's about 44mm wide, 1.6-3.6mm thick, 170g”. Seems on the taller and lighter side for a suji…

What makes you prefer it to the others?

Sorry for all the questions.. I was all but ready to pull the trigger on this but now then I came across Itsuo Doi Homura Blue #2 Hien Kengata Sujihiki 300mm, which is shorter (in height and length) but much heavier. Now I’m having second thoughts!

 

[Choppin]

Wats and Toys are essentially the same knives. Differences lie in the kanji, handle options, variations from them being hand made and variations from cladding type - damascus Toyamas are iron clad and a bit thicker and heavier than SS-clad Toys or Wats; ironclad kasumi versions (specially old school KU Wats) are heavier than SS-clad as well. And of course variation throughout the years from different batches.

I’d just choose whichever is available and cheaper.

 

[deltaplex]

As a whole, all the iron clad ones (damascus and kasumi-mikagi/KU) will be heavier and from thicker stock than the stainless clad ones.

 

[matto]

What are the dimensions and weight on yours? I asked Shinichi and he said “It's about 44mm wide, 1.6-3.6mm thick, 170g”. Seems on the taller and lighter side for a suji…

What makes you prefer it to the others?

Sorry for all the questions.. I was all but ready to pull the trigger on this but now then I came across Itsuo Doi Homura Blue #2 Hien Kengata Sujihiki 300mm, which is shorter (in height and length) but much heavier. Now I’m having second thoughts!

Dimensions of the Wat are below. The width is hard to measure because it tapers. It's 3.6mm at the handle, but tapers quickly. It's below 2mm in the center.
The knives pictured are:

1. Tanaka Yoshikazu Sujihiki 270mm
2. Fujiwara Denka Sujihiki 270
3. Watanabe Sujihiki 300

It's hard to explain what I like about each. The Tanaka is fun because it's so short, it's like a little saber. But it's hard to cut meat all the way to the cutting board without hitting your knuckles. It also wants to rotate a bit because there's not a lot of real estate for your knuckles to hold onto the blade to stop it from rotating. It's not objectively the best shaped suji, but it's fun to use and I enjoy making up an excuse to cut with it.

I love my Fujiwara Gyutos, Santoku, and Nakiris. But I don't love the Fujiwara Sujihiki. It's heavy and thick, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the way the bevels widen so quickly is a problem. You can see the sharpened part of the edge is like 1/4 the height of the blade. It widens so quickly that it's hard to slice meat thin. I prefer using my Fujiwara 240 Gyuto to cut beef. It's the same total thickness at the spine but it's thinner behind the edge because it ramps up over a longer distance. I'm thinking of thinning the Fujiwara and it might be great, I dunno.

The Watanabe is admittedly a weird looking Suji. I didn't like it at first based on aesthetics alone. But it feels good in the hand and is effective for slicing meat where you go all the way to the cutting board. It's almost like 1/3 of the way between a suji and a gyuto, which is not a bad thing depending what you're looking for. It also just cuts very well out of the box, so that's probably influencing my impressions. I'm not sure if it's the edge geometry, or the steel or what, but as you would expect from Watoyoma, it cuts really nicely