What cuts better than a Denka?

[birdsfan]

This is a serious question. Last year I bought my first denka, and then another......and then a third. I have the full compliment now, a 210, a 240, and a 270. They have emerged as favorites. Only 1 knife in my collection rivals them, a 240 Shi.Han AEB-L, well maybe a Halcyon Forge 52100. I have bought a number of knives since then, good ones, but still my hand reaches for the denkas.
Who can unseat them? Is there another middle weight, stainless clad or SS that cuts better? I seek the wisdom and experience of the forum!

(This is not a paid endorsement)

 

[tostadas]

I feel ya man on this one. I've tried probably near 100 nice knives now, and my recently acquired Denka stands among the top for cutting performance. Another top contender is y Tanaka blue#1. It doesn't sharpen quite as easily as TF AS, but takes an incredible edge that lasts.

 

[blokey]

Never used a Denka, but for me knives with performance on par with Shi.Han are: Kippington workpony/laser pony, Birgersson #159, Migoto Blue#1 Shinogi, Unshu Yukimitsu custom Gyutoku and surprisingly a Wakui convex white #2.

 

[birdsfan]

I was wondering about the Y. Tanaka Blue and AS. I have only tried his white#2. It takes a great edge pretty, but doesnt hold it overly long, like most white. Also, I found this example on the thinner, lighter side. Are the blue#1 any stouter?

 

[birdsfan]

Ahhh Kippington! Yes, his work is definitely on my list. They never last more than a few minutes on BST!

 

[coxhaus]

I thought a Denka was a fish knife? I guess I was wrong.

 

[Borealhiker]

I thought a Denka was a fish knife? I guess I was wrong.

Deba

 

[coxhaus]

Deba

Thanks, I knew I had it wrong.

 

[M1k3]

Kippington fish hook.

 

[Borealhiker]

Purple Dragon Aquatic Fish Knives Fish Fillet Knife Sharp Slaughter Fish Special Knife Seafood Professional Tool Fish Knife Kitchen Knife Hammered forging Full Tang Carbon Steel Meat Cleaver ​

 

[captaincaed]

How would you describe the cutting feel that you really like from the Denka? Is it the pure ease of cutting? Or some intangible mix of use of cutting plus not awful food relief?

Also, if there were a stain resistant mono steel, would that fit the bill?

Anything that comes out of the Yoshi umbrella like Masashi and Wakui cut very well, but they don’t have the Denkas heft, but do have midweight spines. Potentially fragile tips. I think Ben Kamon also cuts quite nicely, and does have heft. I think there is some thing about a well polished belt finish that cuts really well, even if you have somewhat inconsistent bevels, but I’m not that concerned about polishing. In that vein, things that come from the Carter school of thought can cut very well. You might ask somebody who has a knife from Harbeer. Still a focused cutter but more interesting steels, full tang handle.

Have you ever tried a Toyamanabe? They’re up there for cutting and heft as well.

If you’ve gone down some of these roads already, I can’t remember exactly what you’ve had.

 

[timebard]

Never used a Denka, but for me knives with performance on par with Shi.Han are: Kippington workpony/laser pony, Birgersson #159, Migoto Blue#1 Shinogi, Unshu Yukimitsu custom Gyutoku and surprisingly a Wakui convex white #2.

I can also compare to Shihan but not Denka (though I did have a Maboroshi a while back) - I'd second Kippington and add Konosuke MM, Wat Pro ironclad, and Dalman x Birgersson gyutos all ahead of it as pure cutters. Kipp is the only one of those that's stainless (and I think most of his current work is in 52100, though you see some Nitro-V); Watoyama SS clad is really good but not quite on the same level IME.

 

[enrico]

I'm watching this thread. I've never owned one but have definitely been curious.

Assuming this is open to all makers. Although western, it'd be hard to find competition for my 250mm Kamon. The cutting output it amazing, although obviously thinner on the end 1/3 of the blade. Cutting root vegetables with it is a joy.....thick and thin in all the right places.

 

[tcmx3]

My favorite cutters are my Shi.Han 240s, and Mutsumi Hinoura's stuff after a proper kasumi job.

But at the end of the day a huge amount of it is preference, and if I had a Denka, or any other knife, I didn't like, I'd just grind it until I did like it. I actually think that once you are willing to put your knife down on the stones there's less difference in knives than we sometimes make it out to be. I don't particularly care for TF heat treat either, but again that's preference.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

One of my best cutters is a Mert Tansu 125sc wrought iron gyuto. It was good when i got it, but after some light thinning, it became amazing.
Very thin behind the edge to the point that it micro chipped when it was used to slice a crusty roll once, but it never chipped with softer produce.

 

[pleue]

Are we taking double bevels? Best cutter of things for me of all time is my doi yanagi. Cutting is such a subjective thing but I think it’s about joy in use. Bonus points for joy in use long after sharpening,

In the double bevel world, for me the notable are a worked over denka, Devin Thomas itk, ignolia convex, kipp wp, and markin half s grind for me.

 

[Chang]

Yanickkkkkkk

I gotta lend you one soon Fred!

 

[birdsfan]

Lot's of good recs so far. And some that I have not yet tried, both Japanese and western.

There are several notable performance traits that denkas deliver. It feels sturdy in a pro environment. I have owned Yoshikane and Masashi, both great cutters, but they felt a bit fragile on the board, as if the tip could snap or the edge would chip if I momentarily lapsed into risky cutting motions. It gets sharp and stays sharp. It refreshes easily. Someone I was speaking to on the forum used the term "cuts" angry, and upon reflection, that is a meaningful term. The edge feels toothy, and bites through tomato and pepper skins really easily. And it does offer decent food release.

 

[birdsfan]

Yanickkkkkkk

I gotta lend you one soon Fred!

We gotta get the Council together!

 

[Corradobrit1]

Yanickkkkkkk

I gotta lend you one soon Fred!

Not stainless although I#m curious to try one one day.

 

[captaincaed]

Lot's of good recs so far. And some that I have not yet tried, both Japanese and western.

There are several notable performance traits that denkas deliver. It feels sturdy in a pro environment. I have owned Yoshikane and Masashi, both great cutters, but they felt a bit fragile on the board, as if the tip could snap or the edge would chip if I momentarily lapsed into risky cutting motions. It gets sharp and stays sharp. It refreshes easily. Someone I was speaking to on the forum used the term "cuts" angry, and upon reflection, that is a meaningful term. The edge feels toothy, and bites through tomato and pepper skins really easily. And it does offer decent food release.

That’s what I was afraid of. Most notable cutters feel fragile, the Denka feels like a tank. Toyama less so. Only had one of each, but they cut very similar for me. Imagine there’s a distribution for each, with pretty fair overlap from reading others experiences.

Dan Bidinger told me once he admires Kamon grinds, and they both feel similar to a Denka in terms of sturdiness vs cutting, but Dans tips are less fragile. Plus, stainless.
- note, not my b grind, that one’s chonky. But he has other mid and laser grinds.

Maybe we should start a PA where many knives go to one person, instead of the usual routine. that was the testing is all scientific and

 

[deltaplex]

Lot's of good recs so far. And some that I have not yet tried, both Japanese and western.

There are several notable performance traits that denkas deliver. It feels sturdy in a pro environment. I have owned Yoshikane and Masashi, both great cutters, but they felt a bit fragile on the board, as if the tip could snap or the edge would chip if I momentarily lapsed into risky cutting motions. It gets sharp and stays sharp. It refreshes easily. Someone I was speaking to on the forum used the term "cuts" angry, and upon reflection, that is a meaningful term. The edge feels toothy, and bites through tomato and pepper skins really easily. And it does offer decent food release.

I think it would be instructive to categorize what you value in terms of a knife and what characteristics you're looking for in a new acquisition. As a starting point something like this (whether for personal or public evaluation):

Likes:
Edge retention, but not at the expense of peak sharpness
Middleweight verging on WH
Not terrible food release

Dislikes:
Shirogami (and similar) steels
Laser geometry/nimble feel in hand
Grinds that wedge
Grinds that are prone to stiction

Unknowns:
Height requirement
Length requirement
Distal Taper preferences
Profile preferences
Maintenance/long term care preferences
Reactivity/Stainless preferences
F&F desires

 

[ModRQC]

I can't help you much. I never considered any TF as a top performer so much. It's more like some fusion in use/feel in hand/digging their looks and often just grabbing it on top of my top performers because I miss all of that... aaaand once down to it, it's a very good cutter with good food release, and I'm a sucker for food release. Also IME TFs are pretty much like tanks despite the high RC. The crisp and solid report on the board is really a kick. All of this applies especially more with my Denka.

Additionally, I found many knives to be at least as good as the Denka if not better, but not much of any one that I would peg to be similar to it nor reproduce the special attraction they hold onto me.

 

[thebradleycrew]

The only thing better than a Denka is another Denka but one that the Master has personally signed. Ask @Markcg!

 

[RRLOVER]

One of my best cutters is a Mert Tansu 125sc wrought iron gyuto. It was good when i got it, but after some light thinning, it became amazing.
Very thin behind the edge to the point that it micro chipped when it was used to slice a crusty roll once, but it never chipped with softer produce.

Mert's cuts better than the Carter that I sold you?

 

[demcav]

I can understand your love for Denka working in a professional setting. I did, too, prior to retiring. I didn't think any knife would replace my Denka gyutos (210mm and 270mm) as my go-to's. However, now that I work in my home kitchen only for family and friends, the KKF-drop Kamon (220mm) has become my go-to. Although it's not quite as robust as the Denkas, Kamon's more extreme taper -- especially that tip (!) -- and its overall nimbleness are welcomed tradeoffs. I think of the Kamon as a Ferarri compared to the Denka as an MB. And, of course, given the pace of cooking at home stainless cladding is not as critical.

I still appreciate using the Denkas, a much loved Shihan A2, or Watanabe iron clad when a bit more robustness is called for. All are great knives with excellent heat treatment, grind, profile, and ease of sharpening.

 

[jedy617]

One of my best cutters is a Mert Tansu 125sc wrought iron gyuto. It was good when i got it, but after some light thinning, it became amazing.
Very thin behind the edge to the point that it micro chipped when it was used to slice a crusty roll once, but it never chipped with softer produce.

I was gonna say, my HVB from Mert has a workhorse look by the choil, but goes through carrots almost silently. A superb cutter

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Mert's cuts better than the Carter that I sold you?

I love that Carter and it definitely is a special blade with a killer handle. It cuts very well, but i haven't had the heart to thin it the way i did with Mert's gyuto. Mert's 125sc managed to cut like a paper thin behind the edge blade, but still reasonably chip resistant. Carter's is no slouch in that department, but i feel it isn't a fair comparison as i haven't thinned it also.

 

[Jovidah]

The only thing better than a Denka is another Denka but one that the Master has personally signed. Ask @Markcg!

I'm genuinely dissapointed this thread wasn't filled with more people saying 'What's better than a denka? Two denkas!' in a thinly veiled attempt to legitimize more knife purchases.

 

[ragz]

In a professional setting they are hard to beat. The other two chef knives I've enjoyed as much (in such a setting) are Toyama and Bazes.