Whats the deal with micro chipping???????????????????

[Neyxous]

I have read quite a few .... opinions on this. I am a total noob, that being said- Is this actually normal ??? Why do i read some saying its "expected" Does carbon steel do this (never really seen reference to it) or only the VGs and supersteels....
Is there any one cause? Is it far more complicated than a simple answer?

 

[jaeysehn]

I found this article pretty interesting and helpful, though im not sure it 100% addresses your question

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/28/chipping-of-edges/

 

[Neyxous]

Neat.. now i have to go buy a micro scope to see for myself!!

 

[Nagakin]

I can't explain why it happens but I see it most:

1. On some factory edges straight OOTB.
2. On edges sharpened too acutely without a microbevel.
3. From torquing and poor technique.

It's only seems more common on steels like VG10/PM because manufacturers like Shun just crank them out as quickly and cheaply as possible through means I don't care about enough to look up. I love R2 as much as carbon and have yet to have an issue.

 

[RDalman]

I believe (impossible to know really) many knives that get a reputation for being chippy ootb, have a overheated/burnt edge/tip during processing. Possibly due to/ in combination with too thin, but really with good heat treatment one can go really really thin without having issues, if keeping cool during grinding and finishing.

Ofc, other things are possible also, like lacking heat treatment processes.

 

[labor of love]

I have read quite a few .... opinions on this. I am a total noob, that being said- Is this actually normal ??? Why do i read some saying its "expected" Does carbon steel do this (never really seen reference to it) or only the VGs and supersteels....
Is there any one cause? Is it far more complicated than a simple answer?

Normal? Well, it depends. Happens w carbon and stainless steels. Causes: high hardness steel that needs a delicate touch and/or a very acute edge that will chip if using too much power to cut food.
Solution: improve technique or sharpen in a manner that makes the edge less acute.

 

[Benuser]

Other than simple abuse a few factors I've seen:
- factory edges overheated by poor buffering
- incomplete (factory) deburring, where a breaking burr is seen as micro-chipping (Hallo Wüsthof!)
- carbide clusters breaking out (nature of the steel, poor HT, impurities in the steel with vintages: e.g. Kai Wasabi, lots of VG-10, old Sabs)
- excessive pressure during sharpening, especially with higher grits

 

[mayong]

I've got a Takamura R2 which is a very thin knife and commonly cited as being prone to microchipping. I'm extremely careful with it but I have indeed noticed some microchipping. It's only visible at certain angles or when using magnification. In no way does it affect performance and so I'm not worried about it. I suspect many thinner, brittle edges will develop chipping like this and most people simply won't notice.

 

[Neyxous]

Mayong- I think that's what I'm seeing. In certain light/ angles I can see barely perceivable *anomalies* glittering back.
I have a microscope on order. I'll post pics when I get them. Like you said, performance is still stellar... push cut paper with ease.

 

[mayong]

Mayong- I think that's what I'm seeing. In certain light/ angles I can see barely perceivable *anomalies* glittering back.
I have a microscope on order. I'll post pics when I get them. Like you said, performance is still stellar... push cut paper with ease.

Yes, this is exactly my experience. And I haven't touched my knife with a stone yet. I strop it back up to hair-splitting sharpness, glittering anomalies all the same.

 

[stringer]

I prefer my knives to be as thin as possible behind the edge for the task that I use them for. I find that this makes my knives more pleasurable and efficient to use and more pleasurable and efficient to sharpen. I tolerate a bit of micro chipping, but if it gets too annoying then I thicken behind the edge a little and/or add a micro bevel.

Durability testing Watanabe Pro Gyuto

 

[M1k3]

I recently noticed micro-chipping on my Takamura. I've been using it on an even crappier poly boards than at work. Which I need to fix... I put a micro-bevel on it today, about 18° per side. Cut a few things, so far seems fine.

 

[WildBoar]

definitely an issue on the Shun gyuto we purchased a couple of years before learning about kitchen knives. I don't think we have touched it for at least 6 or 7 years now.

 

[jacko9]

I had micro chipping on my T-F nashiji when I first got it but after cleaning up the edge with a 1K and 3K stone it went away and I haven't seen it since. I wonder if it could be an edge effect when quenching a high hardness steel where the thin section near the edge quenches at a more rapid rate than the bulk? No metallurgists here so its only a guess.

 

[ian]

I had micro chipping on my T-F nashiji when I first got it but after cleaning up the edge with a 1K and 3K stone it went away and I haven't seen it since. I wonder if it could be an edge effect when quenching a high hardness steel where the thin section near the edge quenches at a more rapid rate than the bulk? No metallurgists here so its only a guess.

I imagine the edge wasn’t that thin when it was quenched. The edges get ground afterwards. More likely is that the knife just came with a really acute edge and when you sharpened it, you made it less acute, so now there’s no microchipping.

edit: I’ve never had a TF, but a bunch of knives I’ve received (especially wide bevels) came with no small bevel near the edge (a “zero grind”), and those edges all microchip until you sharpen them.

 

[stringer]

Here's an example of what I consider acceptable micro chipping. This is a vg-10 core knife with several months of home use with occasional use of a ceramic steel.

This is about the point where it's getting annoying. And that's fine. If it looked like this after a few days then we have a problem. I could make it thicker and have less damage but the knife won't feel as good in use.

 

[jacko9]

I have been drawing my knives a few strokes on a cherry wood block with 0.75 micron CBN before use. I guess I don't cook enough to see that kind of wear.

 

[Neyxous]

This has all been super helpful, thanks. I'm anxious to get mine under a microscope to see what it looks like.....

 

[jacko9]

Here's an example of what I consider acceptable micro chipping. This is a vg-10 core knife with several months of home use with occasional use of a ceramic steel.

View attachment 76323

View attachment 76324

This is about the point where it's getting annoying. And that's fine. If it looked like this after a few days then we have a problem. I could make it thicker and have less damage but the knife won't feel as good in use.

I used my new Watanabe Blue Stainless clad Gyuto tonight and I have the same micro chipping. Shinichi finishes his blades to a sharp intersection and I need to put a small bevel on it soon. I hit it on the strop after dinner but I'm going to see if I can clean it up on my Kitayama 8K tomorrow.

 

[labor of love]

Yeah-that wat ootb edge is no joke. Honestly, my normal/natural sharpening angle seems to do the trick just fine. I never. Put a microbevel on.

 

[jacko9]

Yeah-that wat ootb edge is no joke. Honestly, my normal/natural sharpening angle seems to do the trick just fine. I never. Put a microbevel on.

it was fun using the OOTB edge to cut up some left over pork roast it slices like a razor. I have to sharpen that and the new Toyama I just got from JNS. Give me something to do during the stay at home time.

 

[sumofruit]

it was fun using the OOTB edge to cut up some left over pork roast it slices like a razor. I have to sharpen that and the new Toyama I just got from JNS. Give me something to do during the stay at home time.

Anyone know if it's damaging to the knife to use it OOTB when it needs a better edge? I.e., does the microchipping do any real damage? I'd love to use some of my newer knives (including a Wat!) but am wondering now if I first have to fix the edges (which I'm too much of a newb to know how to do on my own).

 

[refcast]

Use the knife when its super thin out of the box to feel maximum performance. It's a super thin edge . . . its just not durable. When you're done having fun, and when the edge dies out and chips to where it annoys you, sharpen it a bit thicker or more durable, and you're good. You can sharpen and cut, and test that out to see what kind of angles and thickness result in performance or edge durability. Performance being ease of the knife going through food.

 

[sumofruit]

Use the knife when its super thin out of the box to feel maximum performance. It's a super thin edge . . . its just not durable. When you're done having fun, and when the edge dies out and chips to where it annoys you, sharpen it a bit thicker or more durable, and you're good. You can sharpen and cut, and test that out to see what kind of angles and thickness result in performance or edge durability. Performance being ease of the knife going through food.

Awesome, thanks. So it's not damaging to the knife to have it start chipping like that? PS: where do the chips go -- I hope not in our food?!

 

[refcast]

in your food unfortunately, or on the board. Its so small I don't really care . . . it's small enough to go in between teeth, at the micro-chipping scale which, is like 1/10 of a mm to .5 mm at most.

I mean, a knife is damaged when it chips, but that tiny chip is so easily repaired that it doesn't matter too much. Plus the microchips can go away with the next normal sharpening, so it is very much normal wear. Unless you absolutely don't want any chipping, in which case we just would never sharpen it that thin in the future. If the knife comes super thin out of the box, might as well try it out.

If you cut super crusty bread, or bones, you'll see legit chipping, which you do not want, because those are 1mm and larger and make the knife a bit shorter, and take a bit more effort than a normal sharpening. Maybe twice as long or something? Depends on if you want the knife to be as thin as before, or thicker and more durable (durable = less prone to chipping, but less ease through food. But less ease through food sometimes feels more confident or stable feeling, when its with a thicker edge.).

 

[M1k3]

Micro-chipping doesn't damage the knife, just the cutting edge. Micro-chipping also means it's time to sharpen, the edge is weak and "giving up", to damaged from being used. It can also mean the edge is to thin or sharpened at to low of angle.

 

[Benuser]

OOTB edges aren't always meant to be used as such. If it is very acute see it as a service to the end user: with only a few strokes one puts his own edge on it.

 

[bahamaroot]

In summary, it happens, no big deal.

 

[Benuser]

in your food unfortunately, or on the board. Its so small I don't really care . . . it's small enough to go in between teeth, at the micro-chipping scale which, is like 1/10 of a mm to .5 mm at most.

I mean, a knife is damaged when it chips, but that tiny chip is so easily repaired that it doesn't matter too much. Plus the microchips can go away with the next normal sharpening, so it is very much normal wear. Unless you absolutely don't want any chipping, in which case we just would never sharpen it that thin in the future. If the knife comes super thin out of the box, might as well try it out.

If you cut super crusty bread, or bones, you'll see legit chipping, which you do not want, because those are 1mm and larger and make the knife a bit shorter, and take a bit more effort than a normal sharpening. Maybe twice as long or something? Depends on if you want the knife to be as thin as before, or thicker and more durable (durable = less prone to chipping, but less ease through food. But less ease through food sometimes feels more confident or stable feeling, when its with a thicker edge.).

A blade that is thicker behind the edge isn't more durable than a thinner one. More force will be required with a thicker one, and the resulting board contact will be harder to the edge. Best keep the blade thin behind the edge. It allows a conservative edge without noticeable loss of performance.

 

[refcast]

I was vague, so that's fair. I meant two cases: a thicker edge from a higher angle, or a thicker knife knife behind the edge.

For instance I could put a 45 degree bevel on a straight razor, and it would still be super fragile. For knives, it's not as extreme. . . but it is something I personally consider when determining how much to thin. I've put high angle microbevels that still can bend or chip the edge, because that particular knife was too thin behind the edge for how I wanted to use it.