Which knives benefit from a Microbevel?

[Nemo]

What determines whether a knife will benefit from a microbevel? Is it the steel, the geometry, the use (and I guess possibly abuse) to which the knife will be put or something else?

What sort of angle do you use for the microbevel? Always a single sided microbevel? Always on the right side?

With a wide bevel ryoba, is it better to add a primary bevel on each side or sharpen the wide bevel to the edge (is this what is meant by "zero grind"?) and add a microbevel?

 

[geoff_nocon]

All my convex and wide bevel knives such as my kato, shig, toyama i zero grind then i microbevel around 35 degrees. The only knives that i sharpen normally and by normally i mean your typical 15-20 degrees are my monosteel knives such as my ginga. I microbevel on both sides but i think its best to do it on one side. I just do it on both because i have a hard time deburring when i do it on 1 side

 

[galvaude]

I use Jon's technique to microbevel most stainless, seem to perform much better. Some stainless have pretty bad edge stability at very acute angles. I

 

[Kippington]

Mircobeveling increases the strength of an edge while having little-to-no effect on the working behavour of a kitchen knife.

Which knives benefit from a microbevel?
The ones that need more edge strength.

 

[dwalker]

Mircobeveling increases the strength of an edge while having little-to-no effect on the working behavour of a kitchen knife.

Which knives benefit from a microbevel?
The ones that need more edge strength.

Agree, i sharpen almost all my knives at the same angle, probably 11-13dps if I were to guess. If the steel needs it, I then microbevel. I do have a couple that I zero grind that I add the microbevel automatically, but generally let the knife tell me if it is necessary.

 

[Razor]

On a str8 razor pasted stropping will create a 3 micron microbevel and polish the bevel at the same time. It should have an similar effect on a knife edge although to a lesser degree due to the greater angle of the edge.

 

[Matus]

A simple rule of thumb - if your knife micro-chips with normal use, then you probably need a mcro bevel. With that said, I put a mcrobevel on most of my knives.

 

[StonedEdge]

All great responses. One note that really helped me out is something I picked up from Jon's vid is to a) micro bevel only one side (of a 50/50 bevel) and b) to do it at a much higher angle than most western sharpening techniques usually call for.

I only micro bevel my gyuto because it is very thin behind the edge and is prone to micro chipping with hard use, as well as my yanagiba because I like them quite thin behind the edge and it offers much better edge stability without compromising sharpeness.

Best way to see if your blade needs one is to usen it under normal circumstances and see how the edge holds up afterwards.

 

[JBroida]

I had a discussion about this on another forum and i thought it might be useful here... i think people misunderstand microbevels (and also have no clue what thin behind the edge actually looks like with regard to thinning)...

microbevels are intended to achieve the following things (not necessarily all of them, but at least one, if not a combination of a couple or more):

-maintaining extremely thin geometry on a knife that could not otherwise handle it
-reduce chipping in super hard steels
-increase stability in larger carbide steels (especially at low sharpening angles)
-improve edge retention at a cost of maximum sharpness

Here is an example of very thin behind the edge:

 

[Nemo]

Thanks guys for the great answers.

Any other opinions zero grind wide bevels: Is it best to use a single sided microbevel or two sided primary bevel or does it depend?

 

[Nemo]

On a str8 razor pasted stropping will create a 3 micron microbevel and polish the bevel at the same time. It should have an similar effect on a knife edge although to a lesser degree due to the greater angle of the edge.

Yeah, I found this series fascinating. I think he called the strop induced changes to geometry at the very edge a "microconvexity". The size of it depended mostly on the amount of give in the stropping medium. Vety subtle (0.3 micron IIRC) for balsa and much bigger (I think several micron) for hanging leather. The bigger microconvexity was associated with the formation of a large foil edge which then took several hundred strops to remove. This is actually why I decided to use balsa for stropping. I concede that this is maybe without any real world basis but it does work pretty well for me.

 

[Matus]

I think it depends. Friend of mine has 2 wide bevel knives and he keeps a rather big 'micro bevel' on them for more toughness at work (he is a heavy handed cutter, so to say). I prefer asymmetric micro bevels on my knives with wide bevel - I really only do them when finishing the edge on finishing stone. I somehow find the single sided ones easier to deburr. But that is more lack of proper sharpening technique on my side, than a real thing. Jon has, unless I am mistaken, different reasons for recommending asymmetric micro bevel on some knives (I recall that is how he does them for example on Suisin inox honyaki knives)

 

[unprofessional_chef]

I had a discussion about this on another forum and i thought it might be useful here... i think people misunderstand microbevels (and also have no clue what thin behind the edge actually looks like with regard to thinning)...

microbevels are intended to achieve the following things (not necessarily all of them, but at least one, if not a combination of a couple or more):

-maintaining extremely thin geometry on a knife that could not otherwise handle it
-reduce chipping in super hard steels
-increase stability in larger carbide steels (especially at low sharpening angles)
-improve edge retention at a cost of maximum sharpness

Here is an example of very thin behind the edge:

Excellent information. This clarifies what you said about how people overuse microbevels in the "Livestream Q&A 7-9-17".

I'm happy just stropping and deburring my knives for now. But I'll try mirobevels again if I notice chipping.

 

[Benuser]

A microbevel allows a much thinner geometry. I therefore use -- fatter -- microbevels with soft carbons, like simple Herders and Sabs.

 

[Matus]

I think it depends. Friend of mine has 2 wide bevel knives and he keeps a rather big 'micro bevel' on them for more toughness at work (he is a heavy handed cutter, so to say). I prefer asymmetric micro bevels on my knives with wide bevel - I really only do them when finishing the edge on finishing stone. I somehow find the single sided ones easier to deburr. But that is more lack of proper sharpening technique on my side, than a real thing. Jon has, unless I am mistaken, different reasons for recommending asymmetric micro bevel on some knives (I recall that is how he does them for example on Suisin inox honyaki knives)

I apologise for not seeing Jon's answer before I wrote this :O

 

[labor of love]

Excellent information. This clarifies what you said about how people overuse microbevels in the "Livestream Q&A 7-9-17".

I'm happy just stropping and deburring my knives for now. But I'll try mirobevels again if I notice chipping.

What are examples of overusing micro bevels?

 

[unprofessional_chef]

What are examples of overusing micro bevels?

It's not necessary to use microbevels on Knives that are NOT thin behind the edge. Like most western knives.

Look at what Jon wrote. He explains it in great detail.

 

[Benuser]

Again, a microbevel allows a thinner geometry behind the edge. Some Westerns are very thin -- think some Sabs, most Herders -- and might indeed benefit from microbevelling.

 

[Krassi]

All knifes.
Make it zero and then microbevel with love and no force on some kyoto gravel.

Never really tried it on a singlebevel but should make it more stable.

 

[jklip13]

For me, microbevels are a solution to a problem. If the edge is not strong enough for your use (it's chipping) then a microbevel will usually help strengthen the new edge. If you're not seeing any problems, there is no reason for it.

 

[JBroida]

For me, microbevels are a solution to a problem. If the edge is not strong enough for your use (it's chipping) then a microbevel will usually help strengthen the new edge. If you're not seeing any problems, there is no reason for it.

yes... simply put, this is exactly it

 

[rick alen]

Sharpen steep (10-20 inclusive) then microbevel to suite, from cutting in-hand to whacking the board.

I'm asymmetrical challenged (can't keep the geometry straight in my mind), so whether right or wrong in my mind it doesn't matter, just sharpen steep and microbevel.

 

[boblob]

Mircobeveling increases the strength of an edge while having little-to-no effect on the working behavour of a kitchen knife.

Which knives benefit from a microbevel?
The ones that need more edge strength.

how does the micro bevel strengthen the edge ? the apex stays the same no matter what angle you sharpen the knife at or am i wrong ?

 

[Nemo]

how does the micro bevel strengthen the edge ? the apex stays the same no matter what angle you sharpen the knife at or am i wrong ?

Wow, pretty impressive necromancy! Almost 6 years since this thread was last posted in.

In short, you are missing something.

The more obtuse the angle at the very edge,
1) The more steel immediately behind the edge to support it to reinforce it from bending over (for softer steels).
2) The more steel immediately behind the edge to support it to prevent the it from chipping (for harder steels).
3) The fewer carbides stand out proud of the edge and risk getting blulled out (high alloy steels).

BUT
1) The less sharp the edge will be (assuming an equally well apexed and refined edge).

IME, as long as the knife is thin behind the edge, most microbevels up to at least 45 degrees don't significantly degrade kitchen performance (shaving may be an entirely different matter) but can significantly improve durability in some steels.

 

[Michael Browning]

Would this be a good example of thinness behind the edge for people to see the actual meaning of thin behind edge? This one def needs micro bevel