Which Santoku?

[Julian]

Hello, new on the forum and need your collective wisdom

My first serious knife is a Wüsthof Classic Ikon 9" (23cm) chef knife which I had for about 6 months. I chose German steel deliberately to make it more forgiving and easier to sharpen as I am still improving my technique. If I could start over I would get it in 8", the larger size makes it more awkward especially when sharpening and my stones being on the smaller size. It also doesn't fit in my knife drawer partition.

I don't find myself reaching for it too often, although I'm pushing myself to keep using it and learn. I'd like to own and experiment with a Japanese knife, but I don't want a gyuto because it would be too similar in shape/size. I'm set on a santoku that I would use as a general purpose knife and I would like it to be as different from the Wüsthof as possible.

My criteria is the following

• Made by a Japanese brand rather than the Japanese arm of Wüsthof, Zwilling etc.
• 7"/18cm
• Min 61 Rockwell
• As thin and light as possible
• Traditional octogonal or oval handle
• Easy maintenance if possible
• As cheap as possible but no more than 200 shipped
• Reasonably easy to buy in Europe

Anything not listed you can assume it's not important. What do you got?

 

[Benuser]

Best use the questionnaire.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/the-which-knife-should-i-buy-questionnaire-v2.12791/

One remark, though. I wouldn't call the Krupp 4116 used by Wüsthof so easy at sharpening. Carbon steel, monosteel or stainless cladded, are much easier and offer far better results. The only advantage of said steel is to be relatively fool-proof. A lot of other stainless sharpen easier as well.

 

[Julian]

Thanks Benuser, I did say that anything not listed is not important to me, so if you could give me your best recommendation based on that criteria that would be great Wüsthof's steel is definitely harder than the other random knifes I accumulated, 58 Rockwell I believe.

 

[HRC_64]

200 what? dollars or euros and is this before/after import taxes and VAT if you are in europe...
that can add like 30% and currency can add 10-15% so this matters alot

If you can afford $200 usd before all that extra stuff,
try to find a KU Masamoto in blue steel from JKC,

Althought is carbon/iron and needs wiping/kept dry
it will demonstrate a good example of santoku.

I'd also suggest you look at the (recent) 180 knife thread,
and read up on gyuto/santoku hybrids in this size,
something with a 45+ heel is pretty passable hybrid profile.

Be it either gyuto or santoku ... IMHO a bit pointier
is often better and more usable knife than not.

Just a couple things to think about,
even if you go with something else.

 

[Elliot]

I'd say Wakui Shirogami 2.
Yoshikane also an option.

 

[Matus]

In the EU and reasonably priced:

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kurouchi-santoku-165mm/

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/en/brands/takeo-murata/buho/santoku/

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knife...-22-12-33-182013-08-22-12-33-18-35-890-detail

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku-8-2100-detail

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku_nashiji-2351-detail

(Cleancut has several interesting santoku knives under 200€)

 

[HRC_64]

That cleancut page matus linked to has some interesting choices, among the more unque ones is this Masahi
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku-38-detail

 

[daveb]

Nothing to offer on specific Santoku. But.

The vendors that serve Europe well include Cleancut (Sweden), Japanese Natural Stones (Denmark) and Japanese Chef Knives (Japan with nominal world wide shipping)

 

[Julian]

If you can afford $200 usd before all that extra stuff,
try to find a KU Masamoto in blue steel from JKC,

Do you have a link? I don't know what I'm looking for.

 

[Julian]

I'd say Wakui Shirogami 2.
Yoshikane also an option.

That seems to be a gyuto? Links?

 

[Elliot]

That seems to be a gyuto? Links?

Search Wakui or Yoshikane on either Cleancut or Epicurean Edge. Think they both stock.

 

[Elliot]

Here ya go: https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifebrands/wakui-sanjo/santoku_kastanj-3214-detail

Think you’d be hard pressed to find something better at that price point.

 

[HRC_64]

Do you have a link? I don't know what I'm looking for.

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...o-2-ka-4817-wa-santoku170mm-double-bevel-edge
https://www.korin.com/HMA-AHSA-170

These are now $220-230-ish vs $190-210 not to long ago (they were a steal at $200 tho).

There are a couple classic traditiona/maker satoku profiles (eg yoshikane sld, itsuo doi, shig ku, etc),
this masmoto is still inexpensive by those standards.

Masamoto's KA line is not low end, its actauly one layer above the 'KS' line,
this has a KU finish because its a traditional style knife.

GLWsearch whatever you choose.

 

[McMan]

In the EU and reasonably priced:

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kurouchi-santoku-165mm/

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/en/brands/takeo-murata/buho/santoku/

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knife...-22-12-33-182013-08-22-12-33-18-35-890-detail

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku-8-2100-detail

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku_nashiji-2351-detail

(Cleancut has several interesting santoku knives under 200€)

Good recommendations here. I've used all of these--mostly gyutos though.
If it's me, it's these two--and in this order:
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku-8-2100-detail
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku_nashiji-2351-detail

The main difference is that the Yoshikane is stain-less-ish and the Hinoura is carbon. The hinoura is also thinner behind the edge and slightly more delicate. Yoshikane is also nicely thin but more convex, so has slightly better food release.
So, you mentioned also you were after something that was low maintenance. The Yoshikane checks this box better.
All told, considering what you're after, the Yoshikane would be a good fit.

 

[Ivang]

This!


https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/hinoura-santoku-ichimonji-petties.43018/#post-639359

 

[Julian]

Good recommendations here. I've used all of these--mostly gyutos though.
If it's me, it's these two--and in this order:
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku-8-2100-detail
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/santoku/santoku_nashiji-2351-detail

The main difference is that the Yoshikane is stain-less-ish and the Hinoura is carbon. The hinoura is also thinner behind the edge and slightly more delicate. Yoshikane is also nicely thin but more convex, so has slightly better food release.
So, you mentioned also you were after something that was low maintenance. The Yoshikane checks this box better.
All told, considering what you're after, the Yoshikane would be a good fit.

Wow that Yoshikane looks great and it does seem to tick all the boxes. Plus I have a friend traveling to Sweden soon. Any idea about the hardness? It's not listed.

 

[Nemo]

Wow that Yoshikane looks great and it does seem to tick all the boxes. Plus I have a friend traveling to Sweden soon. Any idea about the hardness? It's not listed.

Being white 2, it will likely be around 62 HRC.

Don't get too hung up on hardness. Once you pass a particular threshold (somewhwere between 60-62 in my experience), factors other than hardness play a much bigger role in overeall knife performance.

 

[Cbt]

Great recommendations going on here!

 

[McMan]

Wow that Yoshikane looks great and it does seem to tick all the boxes. Plus I have a friend traveling to Sweden soon. Any idea about the hardness? It's not listed.

Quick correction... this is the one I was talking about:
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifebrands/yoshikane/santoku2015-04-28-11-57-16-2012-detail

IT's SKD-11 steel, so stain resistant. (The one in the original link was White #2, which will patina). My suggestion was for the SKD-11 linked above. In terms of hardness, it's listed as 64hrc. FWIW, that seems just a tad high to me. Regardless, it a plenty hard knife.

 

[Julian]

Quick correction... this is the one I was talking about:
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifebrands/yoshikane/santoku2015-04-28-11-57-16-2012-detail

IT's SKD-11 steel, so stain resistant. (The one in the original link was White #2, which will patina). My suggestion was for the SKD-11 linked above. In terms of hardness, it's listed as 64hrc. FWIW, that seems just a tad high to me. Regardless, it a plenty hard knife.

Any personal experience with it? I read in a couple of places that SKD is an older steel that is quite brittle and needs special attention, micro bevels etc. The white #2 seems to be more forgiving and the easiest to sharpen, I like the sound of that!

But I think the first Yishikane that you posted might be wrongly categorized, isn't that a bunka rather than a santoku?

 

[McMan]

Any personal experience with it? I read in a couple of places that SKD is an older steel that is quite brittle and needs special attention, micro bevels etc. The white #2 seems to be more forgiving and the easiest to sharpen, I like the sound of that!

But I think the first Yishikane that you posted might be wrongly categorized, isn't that a bunka rather than a santoku?

Yup, I have had a Yoshikane SKD for a while. I also have one in white steel. Both are great.
I suggested the SKD because you'd mentioned that you were concerned about ease of maintenance.
Yup, SKD is an "older" steel, but so are many if not most of the good knife steels--aside from the newer generation fancy-pants stuff. I wouldn't get too hung up on whether a given steel is a newer or older type--what matters most is who is using the steel and how they are treating it. Here, you're fortunate since Yoshikane has SKD dialed in (they've been using it for a while) and their treatment of white is really good too. Basically, it comes down to whether you want stainless or carbon.
In my experience, Yoshikane SKD is not brittle nor does it require babying (it stands up to use well). White #2 is easy to sharpen. If you want to go the carbon route, then White #2 is a great starter. If you prefer stainless, it's tough to beat Yoshi SKD at this pricepoint.

 

[inferno]

Wow that Yoshikane looks great and it does seem to tick all the boxes. Plus I have a friend traveling to Sweden soon. Any idea about the hardness? It's not listed.

there is also a stainless clad d2/skd11 santoku from yoshikane at cleancut. its very good.

 

[inferno]

Quick correction... this is the one I was talking about:
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifebrands/yoshikane/santoku2015-04-28-11-57-16-2012-detail

IT's SKD-11 steel, so stain resistant. (The one in the original link was White #2, which will patina). My suggestion was for the SKD-11 linked above. In terms of hardness, it's listed as 64hrc. FWIW, that seems just a tad high to me. Regardless, it a plenty hard knife.

thats the one i have. takes a killer edge, i have not found it brittle at all.

 

[inferno]

Any personal experience with it? I read in a couple of places that SKD is an older steel that is quite brittle and needs special attention, micro bevels etc. The white #2 seems to be more forgiving and the easiest to sharpen, I like the sound of that!

But I think the first Yishikane that you posted might be wrongly categorized, isn't that a bunka rather than a santoku?

this one is easy to sharpen imo. its not a 3% Vanadium steel. its like all regular SS i think. nothing special. Just get good stones like shapton/naniwa/other known good ones and then its no problem.

 

[Nemo]

Yoshi's SKD (SKD11, As opposed to SKD12, which they call SLD) is excellent. The steel istself is an oldie but a goodie. Especially when heat treated as well as Yoshi does. No issues with brittlemess. Fairly stain resistant. Quite easy to sharpen. Reasonably long edge retention. Excellent knife.

 

[Matus]

Yoshi's SKD (SKD11, As opposed to SKD12, which they call SLD) is excellent. The steel istself is an oldie but a goodie. Especially when heat treated as well as Yoshi does. No issues with brittlemess. Fairly stain resistant. Quite easy to sharpen. Reasonably long edge retention. Excellent knife.

There seems to be a mix up somewhere.

To my knowledge Yoshikane only used the So called SLD (SKD11, a.k.a. D2) only in their damacus clad knives. The hammered series used to be called SKD (SKD12, a.k.a. A2)

 

[Nemo]

There seems to be a mix up somewhere.

To my knowledge Yoshikane only used the So called SLD (SKD11, a.k.a. D2) only in their damacus clad knives. The hammered series used to be called SKD (SKD12, a.k.a. A2)
View attachment 61430

Oops... my bad. Thanks for the pick-up Matus.

Yoshi's SKD is indeend SKD 12 (this was the steel I was describing).

SLD (aka SKD 11) has more Cr. Yoshi's HT of this is also well regarded (although I haven't used one).

Masashi (who used to work at Yoshikane IIRC) is also repeuted as doing a pretty mean SLD. There was one of his santokus kicking around on BST not so long ago. May still be there.

Edit: Not still on BST.... It's sold.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Many older makes stay around because they are good knives. Yoshikane SKD is in that camp.

 

[Benuser]

Any personal experience with it? I read in a couple of places that SKD is an older steel that is quite brittle and needs special attention, micro bevels etc.

Take general observations about a steel type with at least a grain of salt.
Properties will highly depend on Heat Treatment, and will differ from one knife maker to another. They may look for different results. Not always one HT being better than another one. Users' experience with a steel type will often be limited to one single knife. From there on, general statements make little sense. As for brittleness of a steel, quite often it has only been observed with a factory edge and is the result of badly performed buffering. After a good sharpening, i.e. started with a medium-coarse stone, it disappears.

 

[Nemo]

+1 to what @Benuser said.