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your take on natural drugs: weed, shrooms, ayahuasca, cactcii and so on.

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M1k3

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true, and that is what you expect. 'We at company X promote the use of our product'; public companies need to make profits for investors that make doing cheesy things real nice real quick.

Back to topic, natural psychedelics rock!
Pushing addiction shouldn't even be apart of the profit making decision.
 

inferno

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dark olive green and purple with a dash of brown, those are my new favorite colors i guess.
but what use are colors anyway? whats really the difference between a color, and an emotion? :)
 

JDA_NC

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I disagree on big pharma intending to make people addicted, abuse of drugs is not promoted in any way..folks incorrectly using prescibed drugs is what causes many of todays problems. Anyone ever got a prescription for Fentanyl or Sufentanyl, quite unlikely unless you suffer from terminal cancer or severe chronic pain!
yeahyeah, Purdue, in the end pharma companies like all others make money, and marketing groups easily go haywire real quick BUT regulatory oversight is in place (and often fails). In the end of the day the biggest issues are not with prescribed drug users but with illegal non prescibed 'recreational' use. Pharmacists selling drugs under the counter, presciption owners selling drug on to others...
true, and that is what you expect. 'We at company X promote the use of our product'; public companies need to make profits for investors that make doing cheesy things real nice real quick.
Not sure I fully understand your point. You seem to accept that fact that large, multi-billion dollar corporations were pushing their (highly addictive) pills, all in the name of profit. I take it that you are not American? Because one of the most commonly mentioned things, when talking about what non-Americans are most surprised about when it comes to our culture, is the sheer amount of drug adverts that are constantly ran in our media. We have been bombarded by ads from these companies for DECADES. Which is a totally backward situation. Instead of going to your trained medical professionals and getting their advice, we have been prompted to do our own research and even to suggest which drugs we need from our doctors. That's crazy! And these companies also have spent millions and millions lobbying our government and our medical systems, incentivizing them into prescribing/selling more of a certain brand.

People in general, but especially Americans, are sheep. What do you think is the result of decades of people being sold promises in certain pills? Abuse. And this deregulation of drug marketing helps corrupt our already unstable medical system. I don't think it's a coincidence that there's such a strong anti-vax (or even anti-mask) movement in the United States. We have been told for decades that we know better than our doctors when it comes to what we need!

So we have had huge markets for certain types of drug use created by these companies in order to make a profit. Then there is public outcry because huge portions of our society are becoming addicts - and in many cases, these were more upper-class & visible communities - forcing stronger regulation and a backlash from the medical community. But we're still left with a massive population that are addicted to these substances. You can't get a subscription for Oxycontin, Percocet, Vicodin etc anymore - where do you go? To the street in order to get heroin (cheaper) or pressed pills often cut with fentanyl (also cheaper). If a person faces their addiction and looks for help, what's the solution? Getting prescribed methadone or suboxone? More pills??

I don't know how it is today - but in the early 2000's, every school in America was flooded with Ritalin and Adderall. Do these drugs help people who actually suffer from ADD/ADHD? Sure. But the level of prescriptions were off the charts at the time and it led to a huge amount of abuse of these substances, especially since they could be seen as 'performance enhancing' when it came to school work. What happens when those dry up? People who already have a taste for those drugs look for an alternative - crystal meth.

None of this happens in a vacuum. When our society has been flooded with massive quantities of addictive drugs that scratch a certain itch, it's only natural that after these companies are slapped on the wrist with fines and doctors are arrested for operating pill mills, and the source dries up - those who are addicted are going to continue looking elsewhere for a cheap fix. Often at an increased risk for overdose and incarceration.
 

JDA_NC

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OxyContin appears to be as efficacious and safe as other available opioids and as oxycodone taken 4 times daily.11,63 Its commercial success, fueled by an unprecedented promotion and marketing campaign, was stained by escalating OxyContin abuse and diversion that spread throughout the country.2,75 The regions of the country that had the earliest and highest availability of prescribed OxyContin had the greatest initial abuse and diversion.23,67 Nationally, the increasing availability of OxyContin was associated with higher rates of abuse, and it became the most prevalent abused prescription opioid by 2004.2

Compared with noncontrolled drugs, controlled drugs, with their potential for abuse and diversion, pose different public health risks when overpromoted and highly prescribed. Several marketing practices appear to be especially questionable.

The extraordinary amount of money spent in promoting a sustained-release opioid was unprecedented. During OxyContin's first 6 years on the market, Purdue spent approximately 6 to 12 times more on promoting it than the company had spent on promoting MS Contin, or than Janssen Pharmaceutical Products LP had spent on Duragesic, one of OxyContin's competitors.19 Although OxyContin has not been shown to be superior to other available potent opioid preparations,11,63 by 2001 it had become the most frequently prescribed brand-name opioid in the United States for treating moderate to severe pain.19 Carefully crafted limits on the marketing and promotion of controlled drugs would help to realign their actual use with the principles of evidence-based medicine.

Physicians’ interactions with pharmaceutical sales representatives have been found to influence the prescribing practices of residents and physicians in terms of decreased prescribing of generic drugs, prescribing cost, nonrational prescribing, and rapid prescribing of new drugs.76 Carefully crafted limits on the promotion of controlled drugs by the pharmaceutical sales force and enhanced FDA oversight of the training and performance of sales representatives would also reduce over- and misprescribing.

Although there are no available data for evaluating the promotional effect of free starter coupons for controlled drugs, it seems likely that the over- and misprescribing of a controlled drug are encouraged by such promotional programs and the public health would be well served by eliminating them.

The use of prescriber profiling data to influence prescribing and improve sales is imbedded in pharmaceutical detailing. Very little data are publicly available for understanding to what extent this marketing practice boosts sales. One market research report indicated that profiling improved profit margins by as much as 3 percentage points and the initial uptake of new drugs by 30%.77 The use of prescriber profiling data to target high-opioid prescribers—coupled with very lucrative incentives for sales representatives—would seem to fuel increased prescribing by some physicians—perhaps the most liberal prescribers of opioids and, in some cases, the least discriminate. Regulations eliminating this marketing tool might decrease some potential overprescribing of controlled drugs.

The public health would be better protected if the FDA reviewed all advertising and promotional materials as well as associated educational materials—for their truthfulness, accuracy, balance, and scientific validity—before dissemination. Such a change would require a considerable increase in FDA support, staffing, and funding from what is currently available. Public monies spent on the front end of the problem could prevent another such tragedy.

The pharmaceutical industry's role and influence in medical education is problematic. From 1996 through July 2002, Purdue funded more than 20 000 pain-related educational programs through direct sponsorship or financial grants,19 providing a venue that had enormous influence on physicians’ prescribing throughout the country. Particularly with controlled drugs, the potential for blurring marketing and education carries a much higher public health risk than with uncontrolled drugs. At least in the area of controlled drugs, with their high potential for abuse and diversion, public health would best be served by severing the pharmaceutical industry's direct role and influence in medical education.

Marketing and promotion by the pharmaceutical industry have considerably amplified the prescription sales and availability of opioids. A number of factors have contributed to the marked growth of opioid abuse in the United States, but one factor is certainly the much increased availability of prescription opioids.78 The public interest and public health would be better served by a redefinition of acceptable and allowable marketing practices for opioids and other controlled drugs.
 

inferno

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whatever problems one might have, the solution is always found in a pill! there is a pill for everything.
i read it on the internet so it must be true.
 

LostHighway

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cocoa leaves, khat, yerba mate, coffee and tea
There are a number of natural sources of caffeine including coffee, tea, Kola nuts, cocoa beans, guarana berries, yapon holly, yerba mate' (holly genus), and Ilex guayusa ( yet another holly). Humans discovered that they could get a buzz off all of them thousands of years ago.
 

Luftmensch

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Cool thread. I guess I should preface my post with... What the F would I know? I have no first-hand experience in this area.

How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan is a good read for anyone interested in getting to know a little bit more about some of the scientific research and history that has and is going into these substances.
I have only heard & read interviews with him. The condensed version is very interesting. I am sure the book would be well worth the time.

I would certainly like to experience ego-death and, in theory, like the concept of what it could do for the way I think. But there is a catch:

I was 17 and drank it in a tea and can’t speak to potency, I do believe that my experience was considerably a mild one but it scared some of the guys shitless. Dude I got it from just never should have gave that **** to us, we weren’t ready to gain perspective in the ways that the drug really allows you to and it ultimately tore a small friend group apart. I learned inherently that my parents were narcissistic and caused me to be and I’ve been fighting tough questions about knowledge and trust all the while attempting to define ‘who I am’, and I’ve been a bit paranoid because of things I experienced that day.
which leads me to:

TLDR - I don't trust myself, and with good cause.
But for different reasons. It is not addiction. I am self conscious and analytic in a way that lends itself towards neurotic at times. I think that could make me more prone to having a bad trip.

While it is prudent to be concerned with physical safety, my biggest concern is mental safety. It isn't all beer and skittles with psychedelics. There are two sides to that coin. As much as they can provide overwhelming positive experiences, they are also capable of generating life-alteringly terrifying experiences.

The only way I'd sign up for it is if it were like seeing a psychiatrist. A few consultation appointments before a guided experience to keep you on track. This is effectively the role that ayahuasca ceremonies or shamans play. While I sit in wistful curiosity about how good the experience might be, I am not willing to risk my current 'mediocre' existence on a bad trip 😉.

But thats just me and my tolerance for risk. You are smart and gathering information. Be open to all the risks and take measures to mitigate them. Also be honest about your mental state and what could happen if you took the leash off your brain (e.g. anxieties, past traumas). Personally I wouldn't do it without an experienced guide.... unimaginable to do it alone....
 

inferno

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Cool thread. I guess I should preface my post with... What the F would I know? I have no first-hand experience in this area.



I have only heard & read interviews with him. The condensed version is very interesting. I am sure the book would be well worth the time.

I would certainly like to experience ego-death and, in theory, like the concept of what it could do for the way I think. But there is a catch:



which leads me to:



But for different reasons. It is not addiction. I am self conscious and analytic in a way that lends itself towards neurotic at times. I think that could make me more prone to having a bad trip.

While it is prudent to be concerned with physical safety, my biggest concern is mental safety. It isn't all beer and skittles with psychedelics. There are two sides to that coin. As much as they can provide overwhelming positive experiences, they are also capable of generating life-alteringly terrifying experiences.

The only way I'd sign up for it is if it were like seeing a psychiatrist. A few consultation appointments before a guided experience to keep you on track. This is effectively the role that ayahuasca ceremonies or shamans play. While I sit in wistful curiosity about how good the experience might be, I am not willing to risk my current 'mediocre' existence on a bad trip 😉.

But thats just me and my tolerance for risk. You are smart and gathering information. Be open to all the risks and take measures to mitigate them. Also be honest about your mental state and what could happen if you took the leash off your brain (e.g. anxieties, past traumas). Personally I wouldn't do it without an experienced guide.... unimaginable to do it alone....
i have read a lot about all kinds of psychedelics over the last months (and years), and seen lots of vids on the subject. there was one i saw a few days ago with a panel of psychiatrists and researchers. very good vid. i'll post it under here.

*the thing with psychedelics is that they can provide 15 years of therapy in one session.

*some people can get mental disorders from them, and this usually happens to young people 15-20 years old, when these mental disorders usually shows up anyway. and when they take massive doses (more or less OD)

*many people regard them as preventive medicine too. like changing the oil in engine before it blows up.

*one doesn't have to take the max dose the first time. and only an idiot would do that. (and this is why people get mental disorders). maybe try a small amount and work your way up. its not very hard to find out what a small/regular/very strong/ego death dose of something is.

*its not something to be afraid of, but you need to have respect. its not exactly candy. really potent weed can be just as psychologically heavy and scary or much worse.

here are some vids i found interesting. second is that panel talk, it starts in about 10min in.
third vid is an interview with a guy that has a tv show, he has a good perspective on things.

 

Dhoff

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Never done any drugs, drank some alchohol. Calms the inner unrest, but only enjoy it when it tastes good and in small amounts.

I've seen a few friends doing simple stuff like marihuana and their IQ dropped like a stone even when not high after they started. Seen from the outside it really does not seem like it would be worth it.

Might it be that when you are doing drugs you are not able to tell the effects on yourself that well?

Might be I should have posted this in unpopular opinion thread :) No offence meant. Each to their own as long as others aren't harmed or subjected to effects without consent.
 

Iggy

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Never done any drugs, drank some alchohol. Calms the inner unrest, but only enjoy it when it tastes good and in small amounts.

I've seen a few friends doing simple stuff like marihuana and their IQ dropped like a stone even when not high after they started. Seen from the outside it really does not seem like it would be worth it.

Might it be that when you are doing drugs you are not able to tell the effects on yourself that well?

Might be I should have posted this in unpopular opinion thread :) No offence meant. Each to their own as long as others aren't harmed or subjected to effects without consent.
No you should not have... thanks for that opinion, which matches 100% with mine.

Seen lots of "friends" doing only soft drugs and seen them getting dumb or psycho and not few of them ruined there life with it...

Myself, I only drink alcohol in small amounts (glass of good wine to a nice meal or a beer with mates at an open air or something like this but rarely beyond the drink'n'drive limit over here....

Never tried anything else due to the miserable experiences of the people around me made. Never regret it... Why should I have made the same mistakes??

Besides that I have a family to care about and should not take risks of getting psycho or anything... my brain/IQ is my most important working tool (scientist) and to be honest... and no offence... but I've never met a person doing drugs, which I would call "really intelligent"...

Met a few over the years that said like "Oh I smoke some pot to get relaxed so I can work better afterwards..." or "Oh I take this and that to get more creative at work"... that's just BS... all of them were either just stupid or disillusional and I would employ none of them...

But...just my opinion of course... everyone should decide that for themselves

Iggy
 
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inferno

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if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.
 

Dhoff

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if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.
Well, alchohol is damaging when people are idiots and get aggresive because of intoxication.

I would personally object to being in the presence of someone smelling weed in a way that led to me getting high unintentionally. Just like I dislike being in the presence of smokers in a way that subjects me to passive smoking. Especially since I have quite severe asthma being the nerd i am :)
 

inferno

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Well, alchohol is damaging when people are idiots and get aggresive because of intoxication.

I would personally object to being in the presence of someone smelling weed in a way that led to me getting high unintentionally. Just like I dislike being in the presence of smokers in a way that subjects me to passive smoking. Especially since I have quite severe asthma being the nerd i am :)
you dont/cant get high unintentionally.

people become idiots when they drink. alcohol is a drug that causes almost immediate dependence and thats why people just continue drinking until they turn into idiots. problem is that they dont realized they turned into idiots.

i'd say that if one goes into booze, weed or psychedelics (especially) with the mindset that you are gonna "get so fukked up now" you will get a bad to very bad result. and with psychedelics its gonna bite back. and bite you in the ass.
 

Iggy

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if one travels to amsterdam for example where everyone is high all the time and the whole place smells like weed you would understand that this is much more preferable than drunk people by a factor of 1000 or so. if i go out on a friday/saturday here its all just drunk, loud, yelling people wanting to fight. knives, rapes, you name it. if anything decreases IQ its alcohol.
I think you're missing the point here... we were not talking about getting wasted... we (or at least I) were talking about have 1-2 beers or a few glass of vine...

But that's an argumentation often used yeah... expected that...

Also... your "cannot get high unintentionally" is also wrong IMHO.... f.e. if you are in a closed room together etc.

Luckily, the s*** is illegal over here and I hope it'll stay that way
 
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spaceconvoy

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no offense but I've never met a person who believed 'we should criminalize marijuana' who I would consider intelligent
 

Iggy

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no offense but I've never met a person who believed 'we should criminalize marijuana' who I would consider intelligent
Interesting, over here it's more or less the other way around ;)
(not entirely, most people I think just don't care because drugs aren't a relevant topic for them...)
 

Iggy

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Where are you?
Actually I don't really think it's a question of where you live. More I think of your personal sorroundings and people you interact with in your daily life (family, friends, colleagues, customers etc.)

So "over here" more means like "from my perspective"

Northern Germany
 

inferno

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hey iggy, i was once in berlin. never seen more drugs than there and it was mostly the hard stuff too. speed and blow and whatever now people like to do there. pretty far from the natural stuff imo. several random people asked me and my friend if we had speed to sell them...

but even then when i knew what the people were on i saw no fights, no trouble makers, no nothing.
 

JDA_NC

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Luckily, the s*** is illegal over here and I hope it'll stay that way
But why?

I understand that your personal experiences have shaped your views. Marijuana and its impact on IQ/intelligence is hotly debated and there have been many studies used to argue both sides. The main take away from all the research seems to be that developing teens are the most negatively impacted by chronic use. More research is needed (and currently being done) - I'm not someone who believes marijuana is some miracle herb. But we need proper research and education of the populace, not FUD propaganda.

Since we're going off anecdotal evidence - here's my experience:

I am coming from the perspective of someone who has worked in restaurant kitchens almost their whole professional life. So my professional values do not emphasize IQ/'intellectual sharpness' and instead the importance has always been placed on physical performance, mental fortitude, interest in the craft, and reliability. Another difference between us, is that in my industry - alcohol abuse is rampant. That's due to our constant proximity, the hours, and stress of the job. It is basically an industry standard that you get a 'shift beer' after you're done. I strongly believe this practice conditions people to associate alcohol with the euphoria of finishing work and leads to abuse. It's extremely rare for someone to get done with work, have a beer, and then go home without drinking any more. Generally it leads to people going out to bars or their house and drinking more. This is a daily occurrence.

So I have seen a lot of people ruin their lives with alcohol. Not just from dangerous behavior done while drunk (driving, falling asleep on public transit etc) but also from the physical and mental toll alcohol takes with constant abuse. Alcoholic neuoropathy is a very real thing. It's shocking to see the physical changes in people who abused alcohol heavily and then quit.

I moved to New Orleans when I was 21. Which is a city that is built off tourism that's generally blended with excessive alcohol use. Alcoholism is more or less just a cultural attribute. You can buy alcohol and/or go out to a bar 24 hours out of the day, and it's legal to drink in public/on the street, as long as you're not using a glass bottle. When I was living there you could still smoke inside bars, but even small personal amounts of marijuana was considered a felony. My wife is actually from New Orleans and all her family lives there, but we both have zero desire to ever live there again. The drinking culture is just too strong and now that I'm in my 30's, I don't have the stamina or constitution to be in that environment anymore.

I've lived in California twice too. Before and after legalization of marijuana. I found the cultural attitude towards marijuana to be very refreshing. I come from the opposite side of the country, and a town that was built off the tobacco industry. My perception in California was that smoking tobacco was viewed as a very dirty thing and it was really uncommon to see. Which was an interesting inversion of values. But it wasn't the Wild West with people smoking constantly in public or showing up at work stoned. It'd be like saying we need to make alcohol illegal otherwise people will be constantly drinking at work or showing up drunk. Does this happen? Sure... but that's a small minority of users.

I also lived in Chicago/Illinois before they legalized marijuana. The Midwest in general has a very strong drinking culture in my experience. Something about long winters seems to makes people hole up and abuse alcohol. One restaurant I worked at had a large cowbell in the dining room that servers would ring whenever someone purchased the 'Buy the Kitchen a Round' option on the menu - and it was expected in the kitchen for all of us to hoot & holler to show our appreciation to whoever bought the 'gift.' People also brought bottles of liquor almost every night and the sheer amount of alcohol consumed in that restaurant was pretty staggering. Illinois has a history of corruption and financial mismanagement and my understanding is that their legalization of marijuana has been a big economic boom. It is also the most segregated and racist city I have lived in - and I am sure the legalization has helped in communities of color which are often the hardest hit/most heavily prosecuted by the War on Drugs.

So that's just my little two cents. I can respect and appreciate your personal experiences & values, but I have a hard time understanding your desire to criminalize it. In the same way, I'm glad that you can only drink a beer and then call it a day. My experience is that is a very hard thing to do and most fall short.

My thought is that taking a hard stance on drug possession (especially one that is not addictive) is similar to wanting to only teach abstinence in Sex Ed. People are going to do this anyways - not giving a whole, complete picture of the facts helps no one. And the people who don't have the social support & finances to keep them informed & out of legal trouble are often left most vulnerable.
 
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Iggy

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hey iggy, i was once in berlin. never seen more drugs than there and it was mostly the hard stuff too. speed and blow and whatever now people like to do there. pretty far from the natural stuff imo. several random people asked me and my friend if we had speed to sell them...

but even then when i knew what the people were on i saw no fights, no trouble makers, no nothing.
Ok first of all, I'm not from Berlin but I know Berlin quite good (had a short-term work there and lived there) but that's not relevant. Fact is your correct, saw a lot of drugs there in the nightlife...also a lot of aggression etc...

Second, as I said, it's not the country or city you live in IMHO, it's the people you know and you live your life with... (see previous post)

And third and most important... actually I don't care if people are loud or aggressive (spent most of my later teenage years on the Reeperbahn), so I know how rude, aggressive and stupid wasted peoples are (independently of which substances they are on). That's not the point IMHO.

The point is that mind-altering substances include a risk of damaging your mental health as well as your IQ and other body functions. Of course, some more, some less. And for some it's better known, and for some less...
Of course you have to decide if you want to take the risk yourself.

I don't (I explained why... because of people I knew you ruined (or in fact ended) their lives with or because of those substances in quite young years). And I feel good, it's forbidden, because I don't have to worry less about my children getting in contact with.

In fact I would even encourage more stricter regulations, because I know, even now (while it's illegal) it's really easy to get if you want it...

Btw... I'm perfectly clear, that maybe it would be a good idea to blame (or at least more regulate) alcohol, too. I wouldn't have a problem with that... have a look at parts of scandinavia f.e. were alcohol has huge taxes on it and is sold only in limited stores... also... I think I have never seen so many drunk people like new year in Helsinki... ;)

Also btw... I have to say I've never been to the US and know the "war on drugs" etc. topics only from news and media, but I get the impression, that it's a far more critical and political topic there than "over here", were drug related violance and criminality aren't really a big topic in my everyday life...
In fact, I know nobody who had legal problems because of their drug use... but a lot of people with other negative side effects... so I can't really understand the "criminilization" argument

although of course it might be just my little piece of the world I call my environment... so I understand, that totally other views on the topic are possible and understandable and it's all down to your personal perspective.

So please understand all my post as my own personal opinion. Not more, not less.

Iggy
 
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spaceconvoy

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I used marijuana for about five years to help with insomnia while I was going through therapy for PTSD. I was able to quit after I experienced a successful therapeutic outcome through EMDR therapy. Due to my family history of mental health issues, I was wary of using prescription drugs after seeing my aunts and uncles experience debilitating side effects using various antidepressants and mood stabilizers. For me, marijuana seemed like a better option.

I don't pretend it doesn't have side effects - all drugs do. Would you stop taking heart medication because it makes you tired? Yes, marijuana reduces cognition and productivity, but without it I would have been far less productive due to my PTSD symptoms. Thanks to marijuana, not in spite of it, I was able to have a successful career as an engineer during the entire time I was using it.

I can understand how you've become prejudiced based on the examples you can see easily. But I'm almost certain you know people you'd never suspect of smoking marijuana who you'd consider otherwise intelligent and productive. They can probably tell you're closed-minded, so the intelligent ones would hide that fact from you. As a scientist I would hope you'd understand the importance of sample bias before jumping to conclusions.
 

Iggy

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I can understand how you've become prejudiced based on the examples you can see easily. But I'm almost certain you know people you'd never suspect of smoking marijuana who you'd consider otherwise intelligent and productive. They can probably tell you're closed-minded, so the intelligent ones would hide that fact from you. As a scientist I would hope you'd understand the importance of sample bias before jumping to conclusions.
Thanks for your reaction. But if you read my post closely, I was not pointing out facts or conclusions, but pointed out that there are risks on taking mindaltering substances - to my knowledge, that is a fact - and that I would think, that it is not worth the risk.

Nothing unscientific I can find about mentioning an opinion (when marked as an opinion, which it is)... ;)

But of course, it's always easier to say someone is closeminded or biased. The second I am in this topic (I think everyone would be after the experiences), true... the first, no really not and I find it quite funny to be called this just because I don't share your opinion. Which it also is... just an opinion.
 
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