Shun Dual Core Knives, does the description even make sense?

Miura knives
Find deals on amazon
Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
G

gic

KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,510
Reaction score
8
"The Shun Dual Core series features a Damascus blade made from two premium-quality, high-carbon stainless steels. 71 alternating micro-layers of high carbon, high chromium VG10 and VG2 stainless steels are roll-forged to produce a finer grain in the steel and to give it both strength and beauty. The laminated steel is then hot forged to create the herringbone pattern that allows the layers to alternate along the cutting edge. During normal use, the two steels will wear at different rates creating micro serrations along the edge so that the Dual Core's extremely sharp edge feels sharp longer. Etched laminations in the blade reduce drag, helping food release from the blade and gliding through each cut quickly and easily."

Can someone who knows more about knife making then I weigh in and tell me whether this even makes logical sense - could two steels layered actually give you super fine microserations and make the knife really toothy?

TIA
 
It's commonly said about folded steel edges. At one level it makes logical sense. But when I think about what will happen to an edge in use - rolling or micro-chipping - I don't know if it would help in practice.
 
gic said:
"The Shun Dual Core series features a Damascus blade made from two premium-quality, high-carbon stainless steels. 71 alternating micro-layers of high carbon, high chromium VG10 and VG2 stainless steels are roll-forged to produce a finer grain in the steel and to give it both strength and beauty. The laminated steel is then hot forged to create the herringbone pattern that allows the layers to alternate along the cutting edge. During normal use, the two steels will wear at different rates creating micro serrations along the edge so that the Dual Core's extremely sharp edge feels sharp longer. Etched laminations in the blade reduce drag, helping food release from the blade and gliding through each cut quickly and easily."

Can someone who knows more about knife making then I weigh in and tell me whether this even makes logical sense - could two steels layered actually give you super fine microserations and make the knife really toothy?

TIA
Click to expand...

the damascus is only ever cosmetic, it sandwiches the carbon or stainless steel that makes up the edge. at least that is 99% of good damascus. shun loves to BS
 
cheflivengood said:
the damascus is only ever cosmetic, it sandwiches the carbon or stainless steel that makes up the edge. at least that is 99% of damascus. shun loves to BS
Click to expand...

These actually seem similar to the Echizen 1310 series, which is folded coreless damascus
 
cheflivengood said:
the damascus is only ever cosmetic, it sandwiches the carbon or stainless steel that makes up the edge. at least that is 99% of good damascus. shun loves to BS
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Although the majority of damascus is cosmetic, as you say, some knives are forged from layers without a core, as is the case with the Shun dual core and the Echizen 1310 series, as James has said. This type of construction has been used by Devin Thomas and Del Ealy, to name two makers whose core less knives I have owned. I believe that Murray Carter sold some knives with this construction on his website, but they were not forged by him.

Although the evidence is strictly anecdotal, the knives I have used do seem to hold a usable, toothy edge longer than you would expect. So Shun's claims are not "BS", at least in my experience. I'm tempted to buy one and see how it compares to my DT in that regard.

Knives of this construction are rare, so your misconception can be excused.

Rick
 
The 'micro serrations' are what makes me laugh, since the write-up implies they are due to the different hardness of the two damascus layers -- the thicknesses of those striations are anything but micro. If anything, the difference in harness/ wear along the layers would turn the thing into a Cutco :biggrin:
 
cheflivengood said:
so like %1? :pirate1:
Click to expand...

I know of three that Devin has made, and Del has made about a half dozen, I think. Pierre Rodrigue has made a couple, and I think that Randy Haas has made several. But compared to the thousands of san mai damascus clad knives that have been produced, it is probably less than 1% - way less.
 
I have a knife with damascus to the edge that I got to make with Devin earlier this year, made from O1 and 15N20. While I prefer a freshly sharpened edge, on any knife, I would say there still is a slight benefit to the wear rates of the steels being different. Saying that, a dull knife is a dull knife, and even though I can go a slight bit more with the knife between sharpening, it is more due to the heat treatment than the micro serrations. I would still preach getting a knife with proper heat treatment first and foremost, rather than buying hype.
 
The Edge said:
I have a knife with damascus to the edge that I got to make with Devin earlier this year, made from O1 and 15N20. While I prefer a freshly sharpened edge, on any knife, I would say there still is a slight benefit to the wear rates of the steels being different. Saying that, a dull knife is a dull knife, and even though I can go a slight bit more with the knife between sharpening, it is more due to the heat treatment than the micro serrations. I would still preach getting a knife with proper heat treatment first and foremost, rather than buying hype.
Click to expand...

With such a small sample (your knife and the one's I've handled), it's hard to say if it is the heat treatment or the micro serrations. Until someone has made a hands on report of a Shun Dual Core, determination of whether it is hype or not is impossible to determine. I think that the disdain that a large number of forum members have for Shun knives, whether deserved or undeserved, has colored the perceptions of anything Shun produces.

Now, if I can convince my better half that I need a $300 knife for experimentation ....
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
With such a small sample (your knife and the one's I've handled), it's hard to say if it is the heat treatment or the micro serrations. Until someone has made a hands on report of a Shun Dual Core, determination of whether it is hype or not is impossible to determine. I think that the disdain that a large number of forum members have for Shun knives, whether deserved or undeserved, has colored the perceptions of anything Shun produces.

Now, if I can convince my better half that I need a $300 knife for experimentation ....
Click to expand...

I agree, though it bugs me that everything they sell tends to be the latest and greatest thing. Granted, that's marketing, and my experience is limited, but it's like the boy who cried wolf, if everything you sell is the greatest thing ever, then why switch it up constantly. Either way, my experience leads me to say that the micro serrations won't be at the level of sharpness most of us here strive for, and is aimed more towards those that don't want to sharpen their knives at all, or at least sparingly. Shun does make decent knives though, I just tend to look for things a bit more unique.
 
Here are some layman opinions - the different rate of wear of steels wont help much - because edge degradation is mostly due to other types of stresses (you will have to cut a lot of potatoes, if suspended in the air with mechanical arm using the knife, before the edge is dull). Of course have two different materials with slightly different properties could help stabilize the edge.

Now - drag. Do you notice that in piping for dams - where the water flows there are barriers in the tubes - this is done so the water whirls in them and you have water/water friction instead of water metal for the bulk body of water. On micro level the edge should look like a staircase. Probably you can have similar effect.
 
Lizzardborn said:
Now - drag. Do you notice that in piping for dams - where the water flows there are barriers in the tubes - this is done so the water whirls in them and you have water/water friction instead of water metal for the bulk body of water. On micro level the edge should look like a staircase. Probably you can have similar effect.
Click to expand...

I never knew this Dam information
 
Look at some of Will C's threads on feather damascus. With this pattern the layers are turned perpendicular to the edge (whereas a lot of patterns have them parallel) so if there is a toothy effect it would be accentuated.

Damasteel is another industrially produced damascene steel used in knife making
 
Ok, I'm suddenly thinking I misunderstood this thread from the get go. Then again, I am up well before 5am, and my brain hurts. Anyways - if we're talking a 100% Damascus blade, on which the Damascus goes to the edge, then I'm with Rick; You can feel a difference in cutting, as well as the overall too thinness of the edge, depending on how you sharpen it. My only example of this now is a knife I have by Mike Davis. It's a scalpel of a 120mm petty, and let me tell you, you can feel the toothiness after a few sessions of food prep. It's not huge, but to weirdos, like us, who over-analyze everything about their knives, it is noticeable. If you go on the shaving forums, there are many who believe that you should absolutely not use a damascus straight razor, because they have a way of dragging more so tha their monosteel counterparts.

The only other way I can attempt to describe it is: Has anyone here worked with Birdseye maple? If you sand it with a hard block, at coarse grit, you can feel the different levels, yet when you sand with a hard block, at a fine grit, the feel of the wood is virtually the same across the piece. However, if you then take a soft sanding sponge (even superfine), and sand the surface, you will now feel peaks and valleys due to the different hardness/wear resistance of the wood, because of the figuring. Now, think of the sanding sponge as the food being cut by a Damascus knife, and it sort of illustrates what Shun is describing. I hope.
 
are we talking about PC's here Matus? :justkidding:
 
My personal feeling is that if you want microserrations you can always buy Cutco and let them sharpen them once in a while.

I don't see much advantage of having half the edge of the knife dull mch of the time. Toothy edges are easy enough to produce on a set of stones if you want one, without the expense of "damascus" steel, and there won't be the differential sharpening and dulling (since the steels with sharpen differently too!).

My opinion of Shun is that they use gimicky advertising and gaudy designs to sell run of the mill knives to people who don't know better and tend to confuse price with quality. Other than being excessively chippy in some cases, they aren't bad knives, but you can get better and more usable profiles with better steel cheaper, and knives are, for me, about food prep, not impressing rubes.

I'm certainly not going to spend a pile of money on one to try it out!

Peter
 
yea but fred don't you know Shun is the best?:wink:
 
Would the new Shun knives be similar to Saji Core-Less Custom Damascus Series?
Saji-3.jpg

The advanced Clad technology by Takefu Special Steel Company made it possible to forge welding two different Hagane steels of the VG-10 and VG-2.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top